Me is Christian. You no believe in God?
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09-04-2011, 10:36 AM
RE: Me is Christian. You no believe in God?
Quote:@Kikko When it comes to God and us, He gave us only 1 command. We disobeyed. God requires perfection, so 1 offence is all it takes. The logical thing to do with an imperfection is to get rid of it. Thus death. The reason for hell is to give us reason to change. If we die and that's it, then so what? But if we die and we're judged, then we have something to think about. Similar to diciplining a child. Now we're not only imperfect, we have good in us too, so it wouldn't be right for a perfect God to destroy the entirety of us. So in order to separate us from our imperfections (sin), God had to kill us and not kill us. The solution, God sends someone to conquer death so that we can die and be raised again, sinless. Thus Jesus died for us (having lived a sinless life) and raised again from the dead because not having sinned, He couldn't be kept by death. Thus He can also raise us back to life. Anyways, same doctrine again said in a different way.
He gave the command knowing that it will be breaked. What kind of an idiot creates something imperfect, and then requires perfection from it? Even before he had created anything he knew what's going to happen: his creation will disobey, he'll make them die, he'll send himself as Jesus to die on earth, because he wants to do it in a complicated way that doesn't seem like the way of an omnimpotent being.

He made hell to make us change? If he really wanted to make us think about hell, why didn't he make the existance of hell apparent to us? Why is he hiding the truth?

Correct me when I'm wrong.
Accept me or go to hell.
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09-04-2011, 01:50 PM
RE: Me is Christian. You no believe in God?
@ BlackEyedGhost So this thread has gone on for a few months now, and I was wondering if you have come to a better understanding of our position. Can you see how those of us that were once religious have come to view it the way we currently do?

Of all the ideas put forth by science, it is the principle of Superposition that can undo any power of the gods. For the accumulation of smaller actions has the ability to create, destroy, and move the world.

"I am the master of my fate, I am the captain of my soul." -W. E. Henley
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09-04-2011, 03:49 PM (This post was last modified: 09-04-2011 04:41 PM by BlackEyedGhost.)
RE: Me is Christian. You no believe in God?
(09-04-2011 01:50 PM)Glaucus Wrote:  @ BlackEyedGhost So this thread has gone on for a few months now, and I was wondering if you have come to a better understanding of our position. Can you see how those of us that were once religious have come to view it the way we currently do?

Yes, I think I understand now better than I did when I started this thread. Would you like me to say more or whatever?
(09-04-2011 03:59 AM)Buddy Christ Wrote:  Omniscience and free will cannot coincide. If you know what I'm going to do before I do it, then all that is left is the illusion of free will. Either God knew that we would eat from the tree that he purposely placed there (he is malevolent) or he didn't know because Adam could have chosen either way (he isn't omniscient).

If God exists, he is a prick and not worth acknowledging. Buddha trumps him on morals anyways.

Defining free will as I understand it is the ability to choose between multiple options. It's the ability, it's not defined by what you will do. Just because something outside knows what you will do doesn't mean it changes your ability to make the choice.
(09-04-2011 04:06 AM)GodVirusDeleted Wrote:  Why believe in the Christian god and not any of the others? Can the billions of Hindu's and Muslims be liars too?

Do you know anyone who hasn't lied in their life? Either way, I wouldn't say that all of them are so much liars as misinformed. For many religions you can apply Pascal's wager. If I'm wrong in believing in God, but we're reincarnated or that there is no afterlife, I lose nothing, but if there is and I don't believe in God then I'm doomed. So one answer is that it's the betting man's choice. At the moment that's the only reason I can come up with that I can explain well. Perhaps I can come back with more later. It's a big topic.
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09-04-2011, 09:18 PM
RE: Me is Christian. You no believe in God?
(09-04-2011 03:49 PM)BlackEyedGhost Wrote:  For many religions you can apply Pascal's wager. If I'm wrong in believing in God, but we're reincarnated or that there is no afterlife, I lose nothing, but if there is and I don't believe in God then I'm doomed.
You happened to conveniently gloss over the 1.57 billion Muslims and go for the Hindu believers.. Was that intentional? Then there are all the Christians with the "right" interpretation of the bible saying you will end up in hell. You can try pascals wager on those Christians.. See if they buy it.

I can't believe you brought up pascals wager.. if you know the argument by that name how is it you attempt to use it to justify anything? You must be trolling.
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10-04-2011, 12:48 AM
RE: Me is Christian. You no believe in God?
@GodVirusDeleted It wasn't intentional to gloss over the Muslums. As I said, Pascal's wager is just the only thing I had at the time to present. Also, I don't see Pascals wager as a great reason (relatively) to start with, just a good logical one. The main reason is because Christianity makes sense and is right, but that answer is obviously way too much for me to cover in a single answer. After all, the entirety of this site (or at least a large amount) is dedicated to showing that I'm wrong on that. Anyways, I'm tired. I'll get back to more stuff later.
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10-04-2011, 05:21 AM
RE: Me is Christian. You no believe in God?
I'm sorry, but if you believe and one of the reasons for believing is you being afraid of being wrong, then that is completely wrong of you. That reason is the worst reason for someone to be a believer, the reason itself comes from human fear and nothing else. You do appear to have mixed feelings and reasons, but still, gambling with religion because you want to have more percent on your side is wrong in so many ways... At one short period in my life I also believed just because to be sure, but then I began to question the other religions, what if they are right and my belief is wrong? After that I realized that if you believe, it should and must be because you believe and have faith in your God, you love Him and His teachings. If you have at least a small amount of fear, so you base a part of your religion on fear, so you take a fail-safe, don't you think your God knows that? Can't He see in your hart and see the truth, that you are not a "true believer", but someone who wants to raise the chances for better afterlife? Isn't that believing for the wrong reasons? I think you should question your faith and yourself a little bit. Maybe even a talk with your local priest about this subject... Think about this a bit, this is not something to say and accept lightly if you call yourself a Christian and a believer.

And one other thing, think in what would you believe is you were born in some other country, what God would you worship then? So the main reason for everyones beliefs is their parents and the way they raised you. If you want to have clear head, you should forget about how you were brought up as a child, start thinking without being indoctrinated (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indoctrination), who knows then what will you be able to figure out for yourself. This is very tricky and hard process, not an easy thing to unlearn things you listen and learn whole your life.

Free your mind, enlighten yourself, see the world through your eyes, not somebody elses..

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I have a theory that the truth is never told during the nine-to-five hours.
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10-04-2011, 11:44 AM
RE: Me is Christian. You no believe in God?
@Filox I don't see Pascals wager so much as a reason (definitly not one I'd base my faith or life on) as I see it as an interesting concept that applies to the current situation. My reason for believing is because I love who God is and want to live the best life I can for Him. I may have Christian parents, but my reasons for being a Christian are my own. They had little to nothing to do with me becoming a Christian and since then they've played a minimal role in my spirituality. I question my faith constantly and it always comes out on top. I question the world constantly and God always comes out on top. I'm not your typical blind faith Christian. I know both what I believe and why. It's simply difficult to put so much into a single answer. The very things you told me to do are the things I'm trying to do. By being on this website I'm getting different perspectives to think about.
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10-04-2011, 12:25 PM (This post was last modified: 10-04-2011 12:33 PM by Glaucus.)
RE: Me is Christian. You no believe in God?
I was just curious, no need to elaborate further.

(10-04-2011 12:48 AM)BlackEyedGhost Wrote:  Also, I don't see Pascals wager as a great reason (relatively) to start with, just a good logical one. The main reason is because Christianity makes sense and is right

I do have a problem with that statement though, because it takes a special type of bold to assume that your faith is more right than anyone else's. That is a statement made by someone who has already made their decision, no matter what other information is presented. Not leaving room for future knowledge is a crime against intelligence.
(10-04-2011 11:44 AM)BlackEyedGhost Wrote:  I may have Christian parents, but my reasons for being a Christian are my own. They had little to nothing to do with me becoming a Christian and since then they've played a minimal role in my spirituality. I question my faith constantly and it always comes out on top. I question the world constantly and God always comes out on top. I'm not your typical blind faith Christian.

Do you believe you would still be a Christian if you were born to a Muslim family in Iran? The parent's religion is the foundation of the child's religion.

I don't want to come across as rude, but I doubt the sincerity of your religious questioning. As stated previously, the comment regarding Pascal's wager as making sense because "Christianity is right," is not an indicator of someone who is looking for answers, but someone who claims to have already found the answers and is now looking for evidence to support it.

Of all the ideas put forth by science, it is the principle of Superposition that can undo any power of the gods. For the accumulation of smaller actions has the ability to create, destroy, and move the world.

"I am the master of my fate, I am the captain of my soul." -W. E. Henley
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10-04-2011, 08:54 PM
RE: Me is Christian. You no believe in God?
As a question when you discuss others with similar faiths you always discuss "true" Christianity. What happens to all the followers of false Christianity? If your idea of following your interpretations of the force that compels life has to do with follow or suffer does that mean they all suffer? Does that mean a book that tells it's readers not to take their own thoughts above the statements in it is only there to trick the less self aware believers?

If you really believe in a hell then you either believe that as the book says only a handful of people make it into heaven for putting the puzzle together right, or you believe that claiming to be Christian allows you entrance to heaven even though you may not follow the book correctly.

Here are some terms, Agnostic Christian: A person who believes that the bible and it's teachings have a good impact on life but does not fully accept or reject the spiritual portions of the religion. An Agnostic Christian would seem very similar in most respects to a Moderate Christian, but their focus on religious inquiry would not be about the spiritual but the moral efficacies of the religion. Deistic Christian: A person who believes that the Christian god is real, but does not actively play a role in human life. In this you accept that the understandings of the bible are more touching on the essence of what you see as the force behind it all. A Deistic Christian would see the bible as something made by men that still holds true or at least close to the actual essence, though he would know that despite the statements the book makes this essence is not actively involved in life.

I have religious friends who classify themselves using these combo terms because they agree in parts with a religion but do not feel that it alone is the answer. To define yourself as Christian is to join the flock. Whether you are an intelligent sheep or one of the many average ones the claim to being a christian still supports the rest of the flock. If you do not agree with the beliefs and tenants of others who read the bible, but do agree with parts of the bible and your answers come from it you should distance yourself from the flock by not claiming a title which is only there for the group.

Many people are "spiritual" and read religious texts gaining personal beliefs from them without claiming a religion.

My main question to any religious person is what is it that you are really seeking in your religion? I know that the many rules and complexities are not what you are desiring, but often those are what you are espousing. Find what you really desire in this religion and decide how important the rules you look to are in this regard. Many Christians I meet simply want to believe that there is a place you go to when you die, so I tell them that there is no need for all of these rules and exclusions in order to believe this. Faith is personal, but the title Christian is not. When you state yourself as a Christian you give added weight to the many who follow a group opinion.

I'm not a non believer, I believe in the possibility of anything. I just don't let the actuality of something be determined by a 3rd party.
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11-04-2011, 01:24 AM
RE: Me is Christian. You no believe in God?
Look BlackEyedGhost, you do look a normal, intelligent, free thinking person, otherwise you would never come to this forum, and you specially wouldn't talk to us like this, normal and calm. This says a lot about you, a lot good.

Now what I'm interested in is this. You are a Christian, so you should know a bit about the subject. What mostly bothers me in religions like Christianity is going to haven. Why can't I go to haven? Now bare with me, I have a great example.
You have a Christian guy, he accepts Jesus, he believes in God, haven, Bible, all that. He goes to Church, takes communions, confesses himself and all that. But there is a problem. He sometimes drink, and then he makes mistakes, like bar-fighting, beats his wife, drinks and drives, accidentally picks up someone on a sidewalk and injures or kills him/her... After that (let's forget about police for a moment) he goes to church, he confesses, repents and he is saved and can to to haven, God forgives him. And every weekend is the same thing, but on Sunday he is clean.
now on the other hand you have me, or someone like me. I don't accept Jesus, don't believe in God, Bible or haven. But I never beat anyone, I don't steal, don't kill, almost never tell lies, I try to help everyone around me, all my friend can always count on me, I'm extra polite person to everyone, I love people, animals, hate violence, wars, killings... So all this makes me 10 times better Christian than "a regular Christian", but still I will never go to haven, no matter what I do.

Does that make any sense at all? On one side you have a wife-beating drunk jerk who accepts Jesus and is allowed to go to haven and be saved, on the other hand you have a normal, people loving and caring person who has no chances to go to haven and be saved.

What about double-standards and how Christian is that?

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I have a theory that the truth is never told during the nine-to-five hours.
-Hunter S. Thompson
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