Me is Christian. You no believe in God?
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11-04-2011, 02:56 AM
RE: Me is Christian. You no believe in God?
(11-04-2011 01:24 AM)Filox Wrote:  now on the other hand you have me, or someone like me. I don't accept Jesus, don't believe in God, Bible or haven. But I never beat anyone, I don't steal, don't kill, almost never tell lies, I try to help everyone around me, all my friend can always count on me, I'm extra polite person to everyone, I love people, animals, hate violence, wars, killings... So all this makes me 10 times better Christian than "a regular Christian", but still I will never go to haven, no matter what I do.

Does that make any sense at all? On one side you have a wife-beating drunk jerk who accepts Jesus and is allowed to go to haven and be saved, on the other hand you have a normal, people loving and caring person who has no chances to go to haven and be saved.

What about double-standards and how Christian is that?

Filox - you might as well be a baby raper in the eyes of God...

Here's how the story unfolds:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=urlTBBKTO68

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11-04-2011, 12:51 PM
RE: Me is Christian. You no believe in God?
@Glaucus Let me put it like this. I'm in an atheist forum collecting ideas that go against what I believe. Strange way to look for evidence. I'm putting my beliefs to the test against Atheism as well as any other Theism that comes my way. I'm both looking for answers and testing the answers I think I have. If you can present me with anything that beats Biblical Christianity, then I'll change what I believe, but until then, I'm firm in my beliefs. I doubt many here would be willing to say the same.
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11-04-2011, 02:27 PM
RE: Me is Christian. You no believe in God?
(11-04-2011 12:51 PM)BlackEyedGhost Wrote:  @Glaucus Let me put it like this. I'm in an atheist forum collecting ideas that go against what I believe.
I'll give you respect for this, certainly. I'd say you are far more open minded than many theists I've encountered.

(11-04-2011 12:51 PM)BlackEyedGhost Wrote:  I'm putting my beliefs to the test against Atheism as well as any other Theism that comes my way.
Here's where you're starting to develop a problem in your thinking though - atheism doesn't offer you any 'beliefs' - it just disbelieves your belief. And as for other versions of theism - have you tried not praying to your god and praying to a different one? I hear all the time from Christians that in order to find God you just have to get on your knees and pray and you'll "see" him and his work. Have you genuinely tried that with any other gods besides the Christian one? Because until you have I don't think you can say you've honestly tested other versions of theism against yours - you're just assuming that your version is right.

(11-04-2011 12:51 PM)BlackEyedGhost Wrote:  If you can present me with anything that beats Biblical Christianity, then I'll change what I believe, but until then, I'm firm in my beliefs.
I forget the name of the specific logical fallacy you're committing here, but this is a common issue I see with theists - for some reason we have to offer something "better" than what they currently believe. Why? If you're wrong about something, you don't have to offer an alternative for it to be wrong, it just is wrong. There's no good demonstrable verifiable reason for you to believe in your god (or at least that any of us should believe in him). I don't have to offer you a different god or philosophy to believe in.

Now, secular morality is far superior to biblical christian morals, but that's a different topic really.

(11-04-2011 12:51 PM)BlackEyedGhost Wrote:  I doubt many here would be willing to say the same.
And based on this statement, I don't think you're paying that much attention to what most on this site seem to think. If you could demonstrate to me that Biblical Christianity was true, and that your god existed, and that he is good and worthy and deserving of worship, then I would do it, or at least admit that I should. The problem is that you likely cannot demonstrate that your god exists. If you can, please do so.

Our brains deceive us on a regular basis, so we have to find ways to fight back.
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11-04-2011, 03:29 PM
RE: Me is Christian. You no believe in God?
@BlackEyedGhost

Well my friend, personally I admire the fact that you come here to debate in a polite manner, but I think you are being a little bit arrogant here. I dont think you came here in order to test your beliefs, I think you are coming here to prove that christianity is right, plain and simple.

(11-04-2011 12:51 PM)BlackEyedGhost Wrote:  If you can present me with anything that beats Biblical Christianity, then I'll change what I believe, but until then, I'm firm in my beliefs. I doubt many here would be willing to say the same.

Sorry but you have not presented anything to prove that christianity is right, not the fact that your god exists or not, but I'm pointing the idea of morality of christianity, why do you think christianity is right? Buddists for example also have their own idead of morality and altruism, but, are they wrong just because they dont knee before the christian god? Could you be arrogant enough to say that they are wrong? Secular people, me included, also have our own morality, why do you think we are wrong?

Personally I dont need a notion of authority or loving a god in order to be a moral person, my morality come from analizing the consecuences of my actions, I dont do wrong to other people because I know the consecuences for them not because I love or fear any diety.

The point of our arguments about not believeing in god is just to clarify why we dont believe, using common sense, reason, and logical arguments, nothing else. When I say I dont belive in any god its because I dont have a single piece of reasonable evidence in order to believe,

"The tendency to turn human judgments into divine commands makes religion one of the most dangerous forces in the world.”
-Georgia Harkness.

"La fe es patrimonio de los pendejos. (Faith is patrimony of the dumbfucks)."
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11-04-2011, 03:42 PM (This post was last modified: 11-04-2011 04:00 PM by BlackEyedGhost.)
RE: Me is Christian. You no believe in God?
@Lilith Pride When I refer to true Christianity, I'm not referring to a group, but to ideals that a perfect Christian would hold. In other words someone like Jesus. Since the meaning of the word "Christian" is in fact "little Christ" or someone who is like Christ, a true Christian perfectly emulates Jesus. This may or may not be obtainable, but I believe that those who make it their goal to be perfect as Jesus was perfect are in that sense true Christians. So basically I'm referring to the ideologies of Jesus when I refer to "true Christianity" and people who make those their goal when I refer to "true Christians". As for who I believe goes to hell and heaven, I think for sure that those who make being like Jesus their goal will go to heaven. I think that those who truly love who Jesus is (whether or not in name) will go to heaven. Beyond that I'm not very certain, but it's really up to God anyways. I claim the title Christian because despite the flock, we share the same shepard.
@Filox That question is one of the biggest problems I have with mainstream Christianity. They present Jesus as fire insurance and not the incredible man He was. When you get down to it, that man never really repented. He continued doing what he was doing knowing full well why he shouldn't. He never turned from his sin to join Jesus' ways, he just made it seem like it. God knows that and will judge him accordingly. You on the other hand may uphold what Jesus teaches without attributing it to Jesus. You understand the benefits of doing those things and in the sense that you love to be that good person, you love Jesus. God also weighs that. I'm just a human, I don't know how to take things like that into full consideration and make a just decision on it, but God does. So I guess what I'm saying is, I don't know that you're not going to heaven. You could be. But I don't know, so I'll leave that to God's perfect discretion.
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11-04-2011, 04:26 PM
RE: Me is Christian. You no believe in God?
@BlackEyedGhost

Again, why most of the christians believe that people are going to hell just because they dont knee before jesus no matter if they are good people? I've heard christians saying that Ghandi for example is not saved from hell just because he didn't believe in the christian god or jesus. The same goes for buddists, I know buddist people who are very altruistic and with strong moral principles, the thing that makes me a little bit angry is when christians say that they are wrong and they are doomed just because they dont have faith in the christian god.

As I said in your other thread, I dont see the character of jesus as a moraly superior character because there are things about him that just reflect the vengeful and intolerant persona of yaweh.

Probably you are going to say that the bible has been manipulated, but then the question is why did a perfect and omniscient god choose to rely on fallible humans to spread its message using only writtings which can be manipulated? Thats one of the key points that point out the fallacy of the bible and the christianity itself.

Bible characters including jesus and yaweh are nothing but human judgements disguised as divine judgements, thats one of the main reasons why became an atheist after being a christian myself. I simply started to realize the human logic within the bible along the fact I didnt consider christianism or any other belief system as a source of satisfactory answers for me.

"The tendency to turn human judgments into divine commands makes religion one of the most dangerous forces in the world.”
-Georgia Harkness.

"La fe es patrimonio de los pendejos. (Faith is patrimony of the dumbfucks)."
-Diego Rivera
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11-04-2011, 05:02 PM (This post was last modified: 11-04-2011 05:45 PM by BlackEyedGhost.)
RE: Me is Christian. You no believe in God?
@TheSixthGlass I didn't say atheism presented beliefs, I said I'm testing my beliefs against Atheism. Yes, I've prayed that if any god or gods of any religion exist that they reveal who they are to me. So far I'm waiting on a response. And the thing about the Christian God is that He already has in a more pracital way than just a voice saying "I am Jesus!". Through the Bible I know who God is and what that means for me. I'm currently in a book that covers multiple religions and non-religions (whatever you call beliefs similar to atheism) studying where each is. Also, when I say "present something better", non-belief can be better. I know a good deal about Biblical morallity and God's and I'd beg to differ that secular morality is superior (if you'd like I'd have no problem discussing this in a separate post or whatever). Neither of us can directly prove or disprove the existance of God (please show me if I'm wrong). So, we're left to look at the support which is much broader than I can cover here and now.
@MasterRottweiler I don't mean to be arrogant. As for my purpose, I don't intend to prove Christianity is right, I intend to teach what Christianity truly teaches. Whatever happens beyond that is between you and God. Although I suppose you'd see that as just between yourself. On to morallity. Have you read my posts explaining who goes to heaven? Also, what in particular is it about Christianity that you don't agree with morally? On to Jesus being vengeful. I wasn't going to say the Bible's been manipulated somehow. Jesus did get very angry in some instances. Most of the time it was the religious leaders that He got upset with for taking the things that God established and ruining them for others.
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11-04-2011, 06:33 PM
RE: Me is Christian. You no believe in God?
(11-04-2011 05:02 PM)BlackEyedGhost Wrote:  I'd beg to differ that secular morality is superior (if you'd like I'd have no problem discussing this in a separate post or whatever).



Also, what in particular is it about Christianity that you don't agree with morally?

http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/bible_atrocities.html

Nuff said.

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11-04-2011, 06:35 PM (This post was last modified: 11-04-2011 06:38 PM by UnderTheMicroscope.)
RE: Me is Christian. You no believe in God?
(11-04-2011 05:02 PM)BlackEyedGhost Wrote:  Through the Bible I know who God is and what that means for me.

and through the Koran you would know allah and what that means for you.

(11-04-2011 05:02 PM)BlackEyedGhost Wrote:  I know a good deal about Biblical morallity and God's and I'd beg to differ that secular morality is superior.

slavery and ignorance =/= freedom and understanding.
hmm, I see what you mean, its a tough choice.


(11-04-2011 05:02 PM)BlackEyedGhost Wrote:  Neither of us can directly prove or disprove the existance of God (please show me if I'm wrong). So, we're left to look at the support which is much broader than I can cover here and now.

Logical fallacy.
If I tell you I have a magical, invisible, ethereal dragon in my basement that only I can communicate with than should everyone believe it until such a time that someone somehow disproves it?
and its funny you always say the evidence is too great to put into a single sentence, lucky for bandwidth eh? so why don't you just summarize it for us?


(11-04-2011 05:02 PM)BlackEyedGhost Wrote:  what in particular is it about Christianity that you don't agree with morally?

ignorance, bigotry, hate, violence, slavery, infinite reward/punishment for finite deeds.
Need I say more?


(11-04-2011 05:02 PM)BlackEyedGhost Wrote:  Jesus did get very angry in some instances. Most of the time it was the religious leaders that He got upset with for taking the things that God established and ruining them for others.

Or when a few jews were running their money lending business in the temple and jesus went in there with a whip to chase them off... yea, sounds like a pleasant guy.

Hey brother christian, with your high and mighty errand, your actions speak so loud, I can't hear a word you're saying.

"This machine kills fascists..."

"Well this machine kills commies!"
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11-04-2011, 07:01 PM
RE: Me is Christian. You no believe in God?
(11-04-2011 05:02 PM)BlackEyedGhost Wrote:  @MasterRottweiler I don't mean to be arrogant. As for my purpose, I don't intend to prove Christianity is right, I intend to teach what Christianity truly teaches. Whatever happens beyond that is between you and God.

Originally, I respected you because you came here curious about atheism and why we chose this path, but now you've revealed to us that this was a game so that you could test your apologetics and attempt to reconvert us to your wicked teachings.

We've looked into religion very carefully, and what we found was appalling to us. Your hope of regaining the black sheep that we are is a futile attempt, because we've probably looked deeper into religion than you have and we incorporated that into our conclusions. We've looked at the way Yahweh toys with humans in the bible, we've seen the ways that people use faith to justify their wicked actions, and most importantly, we've seen the ways that religion attempts to enslave the mind and punish those who oppose their "god-given" answers. Thankfully, religion shows no sign of being anything more than the work of fallible men looking to gain power in this world, by promising you everything in the next.

Of all the ideas put forth by science, it is the principle of Superposition that can undo any power of the gods. For the accumulation of smaller actions has the ability to create, destroy, and move the world.

"I am the master of my fate, I am the captain of my soul." -W. E. Henley
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