Me is Christian. You no believe in God?
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11-04-2011, 11:32 PM
RE: Me is Christian. You no believe in God?
(11-04-2011 07:58 PM)BlackEyedGhost Wrote:  
(11-04-2011 07:20 PM)UnderTheMicroscope Wrote:  Is it morally wrong for me to kill my child?

Not the same. God created us. He's higher than us in the same way we're higher than the things we own. If you build somthing, you have the right to take it back apart.

That's bloody well immoral. Might does not make right. Hitler was not right in what he did. I am evil if I kill my child. Likewise, god is immoral if he thinks he has the right to kill me because he supposedly created me and because he's higher than us. It doesn't matter that he created it, or helped breed it or whatever else. That's plain immoral.

"I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason and intellect has intended us to forego their use." - Galileo

"Every man is guilty of all the good he did not do." - Voltaire
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11-04-2011, 11:52 PM
RE: Me is Christian. You no believe in God?
(11-04-2011 11:32 PM)daemonowner Wrote:  That's bloody well immoral. Might does not make right. Hitler was not right in what he did. I am evil if I kill my child. Likewise, god is immoral if he thinks he has the right to kill me because he supposedly created me and because he's higher than us. It doesn't matter that he created it, or helped breed it or whatever else. That's plain immoral.

No, might does not make right, but ownership does. Hitler didn't truly own those he killed. God owns us. Am I not making sense to you or something?
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12-04-2011, 12:11 AM
RE: Me is Christian. You no believe in God?
(11-04-2011 11:52 PM)BlackEyedGhost Wrote:  No, might does not make right, but ownership does. Hitler didn't truly own those he killed. God owns us. Am I not making sense to you or something?

Neither does ownership. If someone owns a piece of land, they can do what they please with it within reason. Take environmental contamination for example: If a property is found to contain hazardous chemicals or environmentally dangerous derivatives, the community has a right to not only charge the owner a simple fine, but they must also pay for the damage and clean up. They cannot simply say that it's their property so they can do what they want, they must consider the effects on the entire community. (You must reap what you sow)

Your position stands on the very weak assumption that you're correct and Yahweh's book is true. And a weak assumption is a terrible way to base your excitement about being labeled as "property".

I would like to recommend that you go onto Youtube and look for Evid3nc3's video series. It may help you deal with some of the issues of your mega belief.

Of all the ideas put forth by science, it is the principle of Superposition that can undo any power of the gods. For the accumulation of smaller actions has the ability to create, destroy, and move the world.

"I am the master of my fate, I am the captain of my soul." -W. E. Henley
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12-04-2011, 12:18 AM (This post was last modified: 12-04-2011 12:23 AM by DeepThought.)
RE: Me is Christian. You no believe in God?
(11-04-2011 11:52 PM)BlackEyedGhost Wrote:  No, might does not make right, but ownership does. Hitler didn't truly own those he killed. "Though he was Superking Bignuts(aka Supreme Dictator) to the soldiers he ordered to do the killing for him.."

"My hypothetical" God owns us. Am I not making sense to you or something?
Just correcting your sentence.

And where do the boundaries of ownership and apparent "free will" collide? If you take it to extremes as your apparent god does It certainly seems to encroach on what a sentient being calls rights. At least what sentient beings with apparent free will call rights..

If I was female and had a child by that thinking I would own that child since every atom in that body came from me originally. Then sentience comes into it. That child can think for itself. Isn't something along those lines in the bible as well? "Man made in gods image". So isn't it wrong then to do something like that to a sentient being made in your image?

When you talk about sentient beings, ownership (like slave ownership) either applies or doesn't apply. You can't have it both ways and claim god as a special exception.

Which one is it? Free will, or ownership?

And this is where your little delve into the hypothetical falls apart.. Well that was fun.
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12-04-2011, 12:20 AM (This post was last modified: 12-04-2011 12:42 AM by BlackEyedGhost.)
RE: Me is Christian. You no believe in God?
@Glaucus You're not the only one who owns the land though. Your land is part of a town or city or county or country. The fact that you do something that endangers things others own and isn't contained within what you own is what makes it wrong. God owns everything that he created and snce nothing was created that He didn't create He's not endangering anyone else's stuff. I realize that this all hinges off of those ideas. You do too, so I see no problem with me saying it in that context. either way, thanks for the suggestion, I'll look into it.
@GodVirusDeleted Oh, well now I know what you meant by hypothetical I guess. I was under the impression that everyone understood that I'm speaking from my own viewpoint and I didn't need to say that these are my views, so if you don't mind I'll continue doing so. Just because God owns us doesn't mean He has to change our free will. Ownership is of somthing less than yourself. A human can't own a human. A human can own an animal, land, legos, etc. Now you may say that it's considered wrong to abuse an animal. However, abuse isn't what God does. God punishes and diciplines. If your pet is out of control and completely beyond being trainable, then you might put your pet down. If your pet is in terrible pain, you might put it down. If your pet doesn't listen to you, you would probably dicipline it. We have the right to put our pets down because we're their owners. God doesn't kill because he's like a drunk man who comes home and shoots his dog. He kills us because it's the best thing He can do for us.
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12-04-2011, 01:15 AM (This post was last modified: 12-04-2011 01:30 AM by DeepThought.)
RE: Me is Christian. You no believe in God?
(12-04-2011 12:20 AM)BlackEyedGhost Wrote:  @GodVirusDeleted Oh, well now I know what you meant by hypothetical I guess. I was under the impression that everyone understood that I'm speaking from my own viewpoint and I didn't need to say that these are my views, so if you don't mind I'll continue doing so.
I was just making clear that the foundation of your argument is non-existent. Gods existence is what is under dispute and you have skipped that and started talking about god as fact. Thats what hypothetical is..
(12-04-2011 12:20 AM)BlackEyedGhost Wrote:  Just because God owns us doesn't mean He has to change our free will. Ownership is of somthing less than yourself. A human can't own a human.
Have you read the bible? Cos if you say you have I think your lying.
(12-04-2011 12:20 AM)BlackEyedGhost Wrote:  A human can own an animal, land, legos, etc. Now you may say that it's considered wrong to abuse an animal. However, abuse isn't what God does. God punishes and diciplines. If your pet is out of control and completely beyond being trainable, then you might put your pet down. If your pet is in terrible pain, you might put it down. If your pet doesn't listen to you, you would probably dicipline it. We have the right to put our pets down because we're their owners.
So your saying god can't treat us any better than the way people treat animals. Nice... And how does that make it right?
And what happened to 'made in god's image'?
Since you chose to start a comparison with animals.. We are smarter than the animals and we have allot of power over them. Doesn't make anything you mentioned right. (I'm not interested in debating morality - subjective/objective since that is where this line of thinking could be headed.)
(12-04-2011 12:20 AM)BlackEyedGhost Wrote:  God doesn't kill because he's like a drunk man who comes home and shoots his dog. He kills us because it's the best thing He can do for us.
That just blows my mind. I wonder how many acrobatic maneuvers it took to have you reach that conclusion.

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On the topic of drunk men, your claiming this god of yours created the universe and this crap is the best he could come up with? have you even looked at the world?
You think your god is behind all this mess? It's pretty horrific if he is..

Rolleyes With a god like that in charge I feel so much better already.. Thanks. sigh.. what a relief! I really should be thanking that guy.
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12-04-2011, 01:26 AM (This post was last modified: 12-04-2011 02:00 AM by MasterRottweiler.)
RE: Me is Christian. You no believe in God?
WAIT WHAT!?!?!?

Ohh I see the bottom line is "your god owns us, he can do whatever he wants...."

Thats horrible and insulting. It is an insult to my intelect as a rational thinking man, and at the same time is an insult to my dignity as a human being.

I dont see any difference between THIS and an overseer-slave relationship, Ohh thats right! In the bible slavery is something condoned by your god, being owned by another human being is present and accepted within the bible, which basically says that a taskmaster can beat his slaves to a pulp just because the taskmaster OWNS them. I guess you havent read your bible, havent you?

"If you buy a Hebrew slave, he is to serve for only six years. Set him free in the seventh year, and he will owe you nothing for his freedom. If he was single when he became your slave and then married afterward, only he will go free in the seventh year. But if he was married before he became a slave, then his wife will be freed with him. If his master gave him a wife while he was a slave, and they had sons or daughters, then the man will be free in the seventh year, but his wife and children will still belong to his master. But the slave may plainly declare, 'I love my master, my wife, and my children. I would rather not go free.' If he does this, his master must present him before God. Then his master must take him to the door and publicly pierce his ear with an awl. After that, the slave will belong to his master forever."
Exodus 21:2-6


"When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property."
Exodus 21:20-21


"Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ."
Ephesians 6:5


So... A human cannot own another human...

Thats the main reason why most people, me included, see christianity and most religions as an immoral thing, also I dont see any difference between your god's "logic" and the logic of a tyrant.

As I said before gods are created using human logic, mankind create gods at their own image, unfortunately mankind give gods human judgements... A sad way of thinking indeed... With all due respect but, I cannot believe I once believe this rubbish and I'm glad I dont believe this anymore. You are just showing how christianity indeed has a twisted sense of "morality". Ohh god's want the best for us! How could I've been so blind...

"The tendency to turn human judgments into divine commands makes religion one of the most dangerous forces in the world.”
-Georgia Harkness.

"La fe es patrimonio de los pendejos. (Faith is patrimony of the dumbfucks)."
-Diego Rivera
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12-04-2011, 04:22 AM
RE: Me is Christian. You no believe in God?
OK, it's time for the Filox-All-Mighty to stop this... Now, forget for 5 minutes everything you know and just meditate on your pure logic, like Vulcans (Star Trek) do. You know no God, never heard of Jesus. And bare with me this 5 minutes...

In ancient times when humans just learned to speak, they were afraid of lightning and thunder. Why? They could not explain it, they had no idea what electricity is, so they invented the first God, and everything made sense all of a sudden. Ages come and go, people learn new things, they invent new Gods and with those new Gods they explain some new things they don't understand... Same thing is happening today. Now we know about night and day, about moon and stars, about electricity, thunder and lightning, but we are confused about philosophical questions about life and death and beginning of the universe so we still have God to explain those things we just don't understand yet because we have not evolved to understand so complex things like universe. These things are very very simple to explain. We are not intelligent enough to comprehend making of the universe.

Now to the problem at hand...
You believe in Jesus? And in Bible? And if I say there is no evidence ever that Jesus is one historical person and the Bible is not now as it was written? Around the time Jesus lived there were a lot of historians that went around Roman Empire and recorded history. Jesus name was mentioned for the fist time around 200 AD. That fact itself is very concerning, because if Jesus was 10% of how they describe him in movies and Bible, and everywhere, he would have left at least one record of his existence at the time he was living and acting. So the only evidence for Jesus is the Bible. We will return to the Bible in a moment.

So just a bit about powers and symbols of Jesus... He was born on 25. Dec. by a virgin. What a coincidence, that is the same date and virgin birth like Horus, Egyptian God of Sun 3000 years older than Jesus. He also could walk on water, was resurrected 3 days after death, could heal the sick, raise the dead... And after Horus there came other Gods with identical date of birth, virgin mother, heal the sick and so on...

So after this HISTORICAL FACTS, we can come to conclusion that Jesus character was a copy of older Gods. Why? Because it works. Cool miracles, cool story, very God-like. It's just a copy-paste and it not the first time it happened. That is why I can not accept Jesus was ever a live person.

About the Bible... I already stated in one of my previous posts how Bible was edited in 325 AD by Emperor Constantine. That is also a known historical fact. And we also know the reason for some emperor to change some religious texts. At that time the Roman Empire was a mess. There were a lot of similar small religions and their old Gods (Jupiter, Mars...). The problem the Empire faced is lack of unity, lack of people support to the government. Then they collected all those small religions (Christianity included) and they debated on them. So they decided that the old Gods are just that, old and should not be worshiped as state religion any more, because nobody is worshiping them. And by making Christianity the way they did, they incorporated different small religions into one, they have combined them, called them Christianity and made it State Religion. Everybody started to worship Jesus and Marry. What did the Empire get? Unity and new authority, the Church. What did that mean? They have strengthened their rule over the people, so it was all political, nothing else.

Now you can go back to believing in Jesus and Bible... How does this story sound to you? Maybe you don' believe in some facts I stated? You have libraries, Internet, local priests, church so you are free to check every fact for your self.

Now tell me, does this sound logical? Is this more realistic and logical than the concept of God in Haven, virgin birth, walking on water... Is it so hard for people to understand the oldest and most basic human emotions and psychology?

If Jesus and Bible are man-made and fictional, and according to this they both are, that means that the whole Christianity is made up, so the last logical conclusion is that there is no God, humans have invented him to fill up the voids in their knowledge. It is that simple and that basic, nothing more, nothing less. The Christian morality, the Christian psychology, Christianity, it all matters not, it is all artificial, human made. It is not necessary, because those ideas live inside us, they are human ideas, human morality, human psychology, humanity... Believe in people, trust in people, you are your own God, there is no one better or higher than you, you are nobodies slave, puppet... Your parents made you, nobody else.

Reality is a bitch.

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12-04-2011, 05:57 AM
RE: Me is Christian. You no believe in God?
(12-04-2011 04:22 AM)Filox Wrote:  You know no God, never heard of Jesus. And bare with me this 5 minutes...

Filox - You are making great points, but you kinda lose me with the "bare with me" comment Tongue

On a separate note, I've been ruminating on this issue, based on reading through this thread. Back in the good old days, pre-Moses - going back to Levant-area tribes attempting to cloister in new-urban areas, there were many competing gods - every tribe had one. The Hebrew tribe and the children of Jacob/Israel had their own Abrahamic god. In order to justify land grabs and devastating the populations of neighboring tribes, they created this kick ass war god Yahweh. Dude was very effective and empowered his tribe to kick serious butt all over Judea for a long time. The narrative here: "My god can kick your god's ass."

Over the years, the legend of Yahweh grew, but only within the greater Judea region - this god of the Hebrews could not/did not resonate with the enlightened people of Greece and the growing power in Rome as they had their own superstitions that were much more powerful.

When the Israelite's started to get their own butts handed to them and they were taken as slaves, the story changes dramatically - Yahweh is no longer this kick ass god, but the Israelites have screwed up along the way, they lost their moral compass and this is part of the penance for crossing Yahweh. Over the centuries, they had to come to grips with the fact that their once proud tribal empire was never going to be restored - especially in the face of advents in technology (for the time) that their subjectors had available. Hence the need for a messiah figure that would deliver them from their fate. Start creating a hope for the future...

Enter Jesus - exit Jesus...

Even after the death of Jesus, the Jewish followers of created many Jesus cults, there was such an incredible proliferation of Jesus cults that by the 50's (ad that is) Paul had to write many letters to churches to chastise them for going down "wrong" paths - essentially, Paul becomes the driving force of Christian doctrine.

The Gospels do not appear, even at the earliest possible record, until after the Second Temple is sacked by Rome in 70 AD. This is an important date and frame of reference. Up until 70 AD, the Jewish people had their connection to Yahweh through the Temple - once the temple was gone - the people lost the phone booth to their god. Enter the anonymous writers of the gospels. Craft a new spin on this growing Jesus story. By making him the son of god, changing the rules for his Hebrew tribe to get into heaven, all of a sudden, the loss of the temple is no longer a big deal.

Of course, we now know that there existed a proliferation of "gospels" that told the story of this Jesus character. It was not until 325AD that the council of Nicea crafted the books of the New Testament, through heavy editing and deciding which books fit the story and which didn't. Emperor Constantine endorsed the endeavor as it strengthened his hold on the empire. Something that rulers have adopted ever since - your life may suck in this life, but be a good Christian, don't fuss, don't rock the boat, and you can have everlasting life and rewards in your next life!

The alternative narratives of Jesus were labeled heresies and the followers of these narratives were considered heretics. They were killed, humanely of course, and their stories were burned (or broken as the case may be). Gotta keep people on script...

Black Eyed Ghost - I think you are a nice young person for being polite to debate your belief system with the rest of us heathens; however, if by now your faith has not wavered, I think we need to call it a draw.

Atheism is not evangelical - we don't get brownie points for converting saved souls. We will provide you evidence as to why we've come to think the way we do, you can either accept and evaluate that evidence on your own and make your own determinations, or reject it altogether and hold on to your faith. No big deal. But asking questions that have been answered to the nth degree, over and over again, can hardly be a way to strengthen your own faith but probably a more subtle form of proselytizing.

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12-04-2011, 08:22 AM
RE: Me is Christian. You no believe in God?
(11-04-2011 11:52 PM)BlackEyedGhost Wrote:  
(11-04-2011 11:32 PM)daemonowner Wrote:  That's bloody well immoral. Might does not make right. Hitler was not right in what he did. I am evil if I kill my child. Likewise, god is immoral if he thinks he has the right to kill me because he supposedly created me and because he's higher than us. It doesn't matter that he created it, or helped breed it or whatever else. That's plain immoral.

No, might does not make right, but ownership does. Hitler didn't truly own those he killed. God owns us. Am I not making sense to you or something?

God owns us? I am not a peace of property, I don't want to be owned by anybody including a deity. this is slavery, this is celestial dictatorship which is like living in North Korea where the people are owned by the state and their only purpose of living is worshiping the dear leader and his dead father
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