Me is Christian. You no believe in God?
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12-04-2011, 08:25 AM
RE: Me is Christian. You no believe in God?
(11-04-2011 05:02 PM)BlackEyedGhost Wrote:  @TheSixthGlass I didn't say atheism presented beliefs, I said I'm testing my beliefs against Atheism.
Maybe I'm getting caught up in semantics here, but you technically don't have anything to test against. You, as a theist, are the one making the positive claim that god exists and interacts with the world. As an atheist, I don't believe you. You have the burden of proof. So please demonstrate that your god exists.

(11-04-2011 05:02 PM)BlackEyedGhost Wrote:  Yes, I've prayed that if any god or gods of any religion exist that they reveal who they are to me. So far I'm waiting on a response.
As I am waiting on a response from Jesus. Did you get one?

(11-04-2011 05:02 PM)BlackEyedGhost Wrote:  And the thing about the Christian God is that He already has in a more pracital way than just a voice saying "I am Jesus!".
It amazes me to no end how Christians manage to think that clear, straightforward communication is somehow less practical and useful than an ancient book written in languages that few people read. Is it that difficult for an omnipotent god to just show up and speak? It sure seems to be.

(11-04-2011 05:02 PM)BlackEyedGhost Wrote:  Also, when I say "present something better", non-belief can be better. I know a good deal about Biblical morallity and God's and I'd beg to differ that secular morality is superior (if you'd like I'd have no problem discussing this in a separate post or whatever).
Secular morality constantly strives towards the goals of fairness, equality, and decency. It takes into account cultural differences, technological advances, and scientific discovery & inquiry, amongst other things. Secular morality is free to change and adapt as new discoveries and better strategies are made. It constantly strives toward better defined shared goals of all humans and how we can achieve those goals together. Christianity has only adapted over the years when secular morality and rationality has won out over it. Christian and biblical morals are bound by an ancient book and only change when you are forced to re-interpret what is there. It's full of slavery, bigotry, genocide, punishment for thought crimes, sexism, racism, and other major problems that many today recognize as wrong. You however have to find ways to defend why Yahweh/Jesus thinks they're right.

(11-04-2011 05:02 PM)BlackEyedGhost Wrote:  Neither of us can directly prove or disprove the existance of God (please show me if I'm wrong). So, we're left to look at the support which is much broader than I can cover here and now.
This is a non sequitur from the previous statement about morality but I'll address it anyway. You are still obviously coming from the standpoint that you assume you are right until proven wrong. Congratulations on being openly biased towards your own presupposition.

(11-04-2011 09:14 PM)BlackEyedGhost Wrote:  You can't bring a child back to life. God can.
Prove it.

(11-04-2011 09:45 PM)BlackEyedGhost Wrote:  Many churches don't know what God's will really is and have corrupted this meaning.
Again, why is it so difficult for God to have a talk with these people who are getting it so wrong?

(11-04-2011 09:45 PM)BlackEyedGhost Wrote:  However, the church I attend I know for a fact both what it's spending the money on and that those things are things God would want.
Prove it.

(11-04-2011 09:45 PM)BlackEyedGhost Wrote:  I'm not trying to sell my religion, I'm trying to educate people about what it is.
That's fine, but you do realize that pretty much all these other religions, and the different sects of your religion, have as much proof of their truth as you do for yours? You are educating people on your version, or your church's version, of your religion.

(11-04-2011 11:52 PM)BlackEyedGhost Wrote:  We're called God's children because God loves us like a parent loves their child. And the punishment of death is also a way of diciplining us like children.
I get really tired of this parent analogy, because it doesn't work. You claim that God is perfect, right? And I will tell you now that I am far from perfect. Yet I'm a much better parent then God has ever been (assuming for the sake of argument that he exists). I am with my children when I can be - and I mean physically with them, I let them know of my presence, especially in times of trouble. When they are punished, I do my best to explain to them why they're being punished, why it was wrong of them to do Action X or say Word Y. I'll admit I slip up sometimes and offer the old tired standby of "because I said so" - but that seems to be what God always offers. It's His world, His will, we're His property. But let's get one thing straight - I would never purposely punish my children for eternity; I would never turn my back on them forever.

And punishment as discipline only works if you are working toward rehabilitation. According to you and your theology, the punishment is eternal. There is no end, there is no rehabilitation, there is no retribution, there is no outcome, - so it's not discipline, it's simply torture.

(11-04-2011 11:52 PM)BlackEyedGhost Wrote:  basically saying God can do what He wants is theistic way of saying stuff happens.
Or you could make that statement much simpler and take the God part out, thus leaving "stuff happens." Which seems to be true whether God exists or not. It's interesting that you can't demonstrate the difference between God and something that doesn't exist.

(11-04-2011 11:52 PM)BlackEyedGhost Wrote:  Lol, a doctor can't guarantee that he'll be able to bring someone back to life. But even if he did, he didn't create that person to start with.
What role do you think sex has in the creation of a human being? Is it actually unnecessary? People are created by sexual intercourse. If you're proposing that a soul is added, or that God adds a piece of magic dust to actually create the life, would you please demonstrate when, where, and how this occurs?

(11-04-2011 11:52 PM)BlackEyedGhost Wrote:  As for care, God does greatly care about us. The punishment of death is a way He diciplines us to teach us. If He left us without punishment He'd be enabling us.
What could I possibly learn after I'm dead? See my comment above concerning punishment.

(11-04-2011 11:52 PM)BlackEyedGhost Wrote:  No, might does not make right, but ownership does. Hitler didn't truly own those he killed. God owns us. Am I not making sense to you or something?
You're making perfect sense, you just haven't demonstrated that God owns us. You are making a claim. Prove it.
------------------------

BlackEyedGhost, I think your tune about what God can and can't do would change if you were to put yourself in God's shoes - if you had the power to do anything, would the Christian system be the one you would create?

Our brains deceive us on a regular basis, so we have to find ways to fight back.
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12-04-2011, 02:09 PM
RE: Me is Christian. You no believe in God?
It seems I've made a theological mistake in saying people can't own people. Oh well, no one's perfect. Anyways, equating God to a dictator or slave master is true to an extent. That extent being that God can't be overthrown. In other words, rebelling against Him is a lost cause. However, as an omnipotent being, it does say something about Him that we can choose to rebel against Him and continue on in life like nothing's different. I'm not sure I have a point. Just correcting my mistake.
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12-04-2011, 03:27 PM
RE: Me is Christian. You no believe in God?
@GodVirusDeleted Yes, I realize that I skipped over proof of God. The fact is that neither of us has proof that God does or doesn't exist. Thus, the hypothetical is all we have when speaking about things like morality and not about outside facts. Good catch, I was wrong about ownership of other humans. We can treat animals very well if we choose. God can do the same with us. Our pets won't always see what we're doing as for their benefit, but we know better. Same goes for us and God. We don't always see why God does things, but He does. God uses suffering to speak to us. You're quite right in responding to these things with outrage. These are horrible things and the fact that you acknowledge them as such presupposes the fact of a Supreme Good. That's another name for God. In our suffering God brings us back to Him. Suffering often brings repentance. Tell me, at what point does suffering become become too much?
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12-04-2011, 04:32 PM
 
RE: Me is Christian. You no believe in God?
(12-04-2011 03:27 PM)BlackEyedGhost Wrote:  Yes, I realize that I skipped over proof of God. The fact is that neither of us has proof that God does or doesn't exist.

Okay. If there is no way to prove it, then why believe it?

Everything I believe in has evidence to back it up.

For example, I believe in evolution (the most supported scientific theory in recorded history).

I DON'T believe in a deity because none have any proof of existence.
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12-04-2011, 09:32 PM
RE: Me is Christian. You no believe in God?
(12-04-2011 03:27 PM)BlackEyedGhost Wrote:  @GodVirusDeleted Yes, I realize that I skipped over proof of God. The fact is that neither of us has proof that God does or doesn't exist.
Here you say you have no proof of a gods existence.
(12-04-2011 03:27 PM)BlackEyedGhost Wrote:  We can treat animals very well if we choose. God can do the same with us. Our pets won't always see what we're doing as for their benefit, but we know better. Same goes for us and God. We don't always see why God does things, but He does. God uses suffering to speak to us. You're quite right in responding to these things with outrage. These are horrible things and the fact that you acknowledge them as such presupposes the fact of a Supreme Good. That's another name for God. In our suffering God brings us back to Him. Suffering often brings repentance. Tell me, at what point does suffering become become too much?
Here you pretend to know the mind of God and attempt to make up a story as to why reality is the way it is and why this god justified. Then you start down an objective morality path which violates the basic principles of logic and philosophy.. great.. If you want to talk about that do some lookups on youtube, wikipedia etc.. use keywords like: morality subjective objective
Get informed and clarify the concepts in your head first.

I have another question. Do you believe the world is 6000 years old?
If you do don't even bother with this topic and address that issue first. That sort of thing really does clash with reality and everything humanity has learned over the last 100 years.
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12-04-2011, 10:21 PM (This post was last modified: 13-04-2011 01:42 PM by daemonowner.)
RE: Me is Christian. You no believe in God?
(12-04-2011 02:09 PM)BlackEyedGhost Wrote:  Anyways, equating God to a dictator or slave master is true to an extent. That extent being that God can't be overthrown. In other words, rebelling against Him is a lost cause. However, as an omnipotent being, it does say something about Him that we can choose to rebel against Him and continue on in life like nothing's different. I'm not sure I have a point. Just correcting my mistake.

Your god is worse than hitler, and doesn't give us a real choice but to kiss his ass for eternity. He will punish people for eternity for a finite crime, and punishes people for thought crimes - even hitler didn't do that. He is plain evil. I don't 'rebel' against him, as an atheist. I don't think he exists for one thing, and the reason I wouldn't worship him even If I did think he existed is because he is evil - he doesn't deserve worship, no matter how powerful he is said to be.
You say it is telling of his character that he would let us rebel against him. It really is telling in my opinion, just in a different way than what you mean. He will let us do what we want in this life but will burn us for all eternity for mistakes we made that he knew we would do, and yet he let us make them. He made us this way knowing full well we couldn't meet the standards he provides and yet he punishes us for them.
Your god is the ultimate totalitarian dictator.
(11-04-2011 11:52 PM)BlackEyedGhost Wrote:  
(11-04-2011 11:32 PM)daemonowner Wrote:  That's bloody well immoral. Might does not make right. Hitler was not right in what he did. I am evil if I kill my child. Likewise, god is immoral if he thinks he has the right to kill me because he supposedly created me and because he's higher than us. It doesn't matter that he created it, or helped breed it or whatever else. That's plain immoral.

No, might does not make right, but ownership does. Hitler didn't truly own those he killed. God owns us. Am I not making sense to you or something?

Do parents own children? I don't think so, at least not in the sense you mean - as goods. This is interesting as you describe god as parent. If scientists created a person in a lab, just an ordinary person but with synthetically assembled DNA then would they be able to kill the person? I would say absolutely not. It doesn't matter that god created us, nor that he is purportedly omnipotent. He is still immoral if he kills people and he is still immoral if he sentences us to hell forever.
Such a mindset is odd from someone who accepts there is no evidence for the existence of this god. You don't really know whether this god exists but you say he has the right to kill us and torture us for eternity.

And you really haven't shown that ownership does mean you can kill people. You just asserted it.
(12-04-2011 12:20 AM)BlackEyedGhost Wrote:  Just because God owns us doesn't mean He has to change our free will. Ownership is of somthing less than yourself. A human can't own a human. A human can own an animal, land, legos, etc. Now you may say that it's considered wrong to abuse an animal. However, abuse isn't what God does. God punishes and diciplines. If your pet is out of control and completely beyond being trainable, then you might put your pet down. If your pet is in terrible pain, you might put it down. If your pet doesn't listen to you, you would probably dicipline it. We have the right to put our pets down because we're their owners. God doesn't kill because he's like a drunk man who comes home and shoots his dog. He kills us because it's the best thing He can do for us.

Humans can't own humans? I think we already did that, and guess what that lead to?
But we can own something or someone less than ourselves? So I can own pigs, battery farm them, and kill them as I please, and torture them for all eternity. If your moral compass isn't totally screwed then you may have realised that that is wrong. I can own pigs, but it is wrong to make them suffer, it is wrong to kill them at a whim and it is infinitely wrong and unjust to torture them for all eternity.
We don't put down pets merely because we own them, we do so because it is best for them. We usually do it because of impending or continuing suffering. But for god to 'own' us and then kill us at whim, and torture 80% of every generation (90+ billion people in history) is just wrong. A being as petty and unjust as that does not deserve worship.
If he were really interested in our wellbeing over all else, he wouldn't do the most evil and pointless thing he could do - torture us for all eternity. He would create us already in heaven and wouldn't even begin to make hell. He would avoid this whole cosmic joke of life and send us directly to the afterlife which actually matters, instead of subjecting us to suffering and no good reason to believe in him and them burn us forever. If your god is actually looking out for our best interests, I would have to think he doesn't know what they are.

"I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason and intellect has intended us to forego their use." - Galileo

"Every man is guilty of all the good he did not do." - Voltaire
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13-04-2011, 01:39 AM
RE: Me is Christian. You no believe in God?
(12-04-2011 05:57 AM)Seasbury Wrote:  
(12-04-2011 04:22 AM)Filox Wrote:  You know no God, never heard of Jesus. And bare with me this 5 minutes...

Filox - You are making great points, but you kinda lose me with the "bare with me" comment Tongue

Year, misspelled it, it's supposed to say "bear with me"... If you didn't heard of that line before, Google it. And I am from Croatia, so I have an excuse. Smile

And now about the theme... I have a feeling that BlackEyedGhost isn't even reading my posts and I wonder why? Why is it you get in theological arguments with everyone, but don't comment on my FACTS? Are you afraid of the truth and evidence? Because as I see it, I'm the only one presenting hard evidence here, everybody else is just debating. There, I have presented you with some evidence, can you give me a contra-argument? If not, we are done with debating.

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13-04-2011, 02:20 AM
RE: Me is Christian. You no believe in God?
I agree with Filox,

@BlackEyedGhost Some members of this forum have spent time replying and giving you well thought out answers and I think you should address Filox's posts. At least think about them and say what you think.

I know it's hard as 1 person to respond to 4+ people so take your time and give it a go if you can.
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13-04-2011, 02:55 AM
RE: Me is Christian. You no believe in God?
(13-04-2011 01:39 AM)Filox Wrote:  And now about the theme... I have a feeling that BlackEyedGhost isn't even reading my posts and I wonder why? Why is it you get in theological arguments with everyone, but don't comment on my FACTS? Are you afraid of the truth and evidence?

I get that exact same feeling...he seems to cherry pick his responses to suit his dogma.

No worries on the "bear" Smile I just didn't like the image of you two "baring" for 5 minutes together...lol

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13-04-2011, 03:26 AM
RE: Me is Christian. You no believe in God?
Deamonowner; I agree wholeheartedly with your last post. But I think you are being entirely too generous to suggest God has only sent about 80% of the human race to burn in Hell so far (I know you just picked a number, but humour me...)

Having considered the list of crimes against God for which being sent to Hell is the only punishment, I find it impossible to believe even ONE member of the human race has ever met the standard for entry to Heaven, unless you accept that a last-breath request for absolution is all that is required to wipe the slate clean of a lifetime of sin, no matter how egregious (a la Jeffrey Dahmer, who will be awaiting you in Heaven, in that case.)

Unless it is true that a single momentary prayer for forgiveness just before you die is ALL that is required for entry to Heaven (in which case why bother with the Ten Commandments, the Sermon on the Mount, and all those other arcane, conflicting, and unbreakable rules for living a Christian life which make up a large portion of the Bible?) the Christian God is an evil being who set out from the start to torture us ALL for eternity for no reason whatsoever, since there is nothing to be gained from such an undertaking, especially since it was entirely unnecessary for God to create "eternal Hell" in the first place.

I have yet to figure out how any rational person can come to terms with this puzzle; given that God had a choice about creating Hell, why did he? And if you accept that God is real, Hell is real, and God will send you there merely for having commonplace human "weaknesses" (otherwise known as natural or instinctive thoughts or behaviours) how can you call God "moral" and how could you love or worship such a vile and merciless creature?

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