Me is Christian. You no believe in God?
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09-03-2011, 04:20 PM
 
RE: Me is Christian. You no believe in God?
Quote:1: The Bible makes sense when you understand it, so that's support, but not proof. Proof (legal-historical) lies in the agreement of the Bible and historical and archaeological evidence. The Bible is a compilation of the most reliable (in the sense of historicity) historical documents we have and the fact that the archeology supports what the Bible says is a huge testament to it's reliability. So in the sense that the Bible is involved in the support of the Bible, it makes sense.

It doesn't though... It's wrong on so many levels. Noah's flood is a big one. There is no evidence of a world-wide flood. But even then, through pure reason we can debunk it. There are too many species, that, even if you took 2 of each and put it on an ark the size as labeled in the bible, would sink due to the sheer weight of what was on-board (which mind you wouldn't be able to fit all of the animals).

Then there is the story of Adam and Eve. We know that humans evolved. We were not born into existence into two individuals.

There is the record of graves turning open and the dead walking around - all of which has no evidence. There is no record of Jesus independent of holy books.

---

For the sake of argument though. Let us grant that everything involving people in the bible is true and historically accounted for. Nothing, nothing at all proves that God is an all powerful deity, that we should listen to what he says regarding morality, or even that he is telling the truth. For all you know, the bible has it all wrong and God isn't the only god, he is one of many. He may claim that he is the only god, but wouldn't you if you wanted everyone to worship you? For all I know Lucifer is the loser hero in the story, who tried to rise against God and his arrogance. I know I would be a little angry if someone told me everything I do was to glorify them. But this is all speculation without a shred of proof behind it. I'm just showing that even granting much of the Bible true, we are still left with questions.

We can't disprove God's existence, but neither can you disprove a several gods' existence.
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09-03-2011, 07:40 PM (This post was last modified: 09-03-2011 07:50 PM by daemonowner.)
RE: Me is Christian. You no believe in God?
@Sacrieur I would say its holy book - not plural - but not only does the bible contradict what the other gospels (thomas, peter, mary, saviour, etc) say, it also contradicts itself.
As for the quote, he is so full of shit.
As hitchens likes to raise, you have to remember the israeli archeologists who went out searching for evidence of the accounts in the bible - any of it - and although they were religious and were being paid by religious people, they couldn't find a thing.

The story of Adam and Eve fails when you realise that you can't keep a species going with a population of even 50. There just isn't enough genetic variation. These problems have been happening to people who breed with their family members or within a single group, like american jews.
(09-03-2011 11:41 AM)BlackEyedGhost Wrote:  1. God is not a human and can't murder. We all die someday, so being God, it's simply deciding the time when we die.
...
3. Yes, science rocks. Archeology supports the Bible overwhelmingly. Practicality and understanding are awesome too, and the Bible repeatedly makes the point that we need to understand things as best as we can. My favorite Bible verse: "Make your ear attentive to wisdom, Incline your ear to understanding." -Proverbs 2:2 (NASB)-

Oh, you're a fool. If I was a dictator, then would I have the right to kill someone? If I owned a slave, would I be lawfully able to kill him/her? I mean afterall, I am the owner of them, I rule over them, I am simply deciding when they die...

And no. The bible is not in the slightest supported by archeological evidence.

"I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason and intellect has intended us to forego their use." - Galileo

"Every man is guilty of all the good he did not do." - Voltaire
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09-03-2011, 09:02 PM
RE: Me is Christian. You no believe in God?
Quote:7: He could be. If you take the time to seriously understand what each religious group believes and what their teachings actually are, I'm pretty confident you'll find that the only one that isn't totally based in something some guy thought up is the Biblical God. Other religions are based mainly on the teachings of a single person, whereas the Bible is a compilation of what many prophets and teachers taught about the same God.
So that's why the authors contradict themselves so much ?
http://www.youtube.com/user/profmth?blen...F680C1DBEB

Quote:9: Christianity is all about order and goodness. The Christians don't usually portray it as such, but Biblically it's true.
Now this is just too funny. It's true Biblically but the people who consider the Bible the holy book can't apply those rules.
God isn't that much of a nice guy :
http://thethinkingatheist.com/bible_atrocities.html

And to quote Ghandi :
"I very much like your Christ.I don't like your Christians - they are so unlike your Christ"

Atheism is a religion like OFF is a TV channel !!!

Proud of my genetic relatives Big Grin
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09-03-2011, 09:48 PM
RE: Me is Christian. You no believe in God?
(09-03-2011 11:41 AM)BlackEyedGhost Wrote:  2. Proves? Or supports the idea?

Proves.

Quote:3. Yes, science rocks. Archeology supports the Bible overwhelmingly.

No, it doesn't. It proves the Bible wrong. Overwhelmingly.

(09-03-2011 01:35 PM)BlackEyedGhost Wrote:  Also, the language at the time wasn't like anything we have now. It was a much more ... divine language that made much more sense and would thus be simpler to learn and use.

Your evidence for this?

Quote:It's unclear to you in the same way English is unclear to a newborn. It's not nonsensical, you just don't understand it.

And for this?

(09-03-2011 02:54 PM)BlackEyedGhost Wrote:  1: The Bible makes sense when you understand it

And for this?

Quote:Proof (legal-historical) lies in the agreement of the Bible and historical and archaeological evidence.

There is no such evidence.

Quote:Scientific evidence lies in Archeology.

Yes, it does. But not for the Bible.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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09-03-2011, 10:59 PM
RE: Me is Christian. You no believe in God?
(09-03-2011 03:31 PM)13mentaculus Wrote:  How do we discern which parts of The Bible are the views of God, and which parts are the views or exaggerations of the authors?

I agree with GassyKitten. Atheism is the default position with respect to all claims to the existence of a god, or a set of gods.

You cannot profess belief in something that you aren't aware of.

Perhaps I didn't phrase that as well as I could have. My point was that the Bible was subject to the viewpoints of people from the time they were written and we must look at it in that way.
-I remember a situation where it says that God hardened a man's heart, and in another place it says Satan hardened his heart (referring to the same exact situation) and in situations like that we need to look past how the people viewed it and see the point that his heart was hardened, regardless of what was behind it.
-So basically to discern which parts are the views of God, we need to take them in context and try to see the point(s) being made rather than how it's being made. You can make the Bible say anything you want when you take things out of context or misunderstand them, but if you make a point to understand and take things in context (not just of where in the Bible, but of the time period, the culture, etc.) then you'll be able to discern.

I would argue that in that case it also wouldn't be atheist, but rather something more like agnostic where you're not rejecting God outright, but rather are open to ideas. More of a blank slate where you neither reject nor understand the idea of God.

Thanks for your thoughts, and yes, you quoted us correctly.
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09-03-2011, 11:03 PM (This post was last modified: 09-03-2011 11:12 PM by Glaucus.)
RE: Me is Christian. You no believe in God?
Ignoring an evidence based argument against religion, my biggest problem with religion is how it degrades us for being human. I get tired of hearing theists say that we are evil, wicked, and immoral beings, and we must grovel before a deity to repent for our innate wickedness. What is wrong with being human? Why are religions so against our humanity?

I also think that putting a deity behind this world takes away the beauty of it. What meaning comes from a stranger helping me, if they're only doing it because Yahweh willed it? I can put meaning into my life through my actions and what I leave behind. Saying Yahweh is the cause of my good deeds just makes me a pawn in a game. I prefer not to think of this life as simply a game or test, and I'm not going to spend this life preparing for the next (I'll enjoy that life when I get there, but not a moment before).

"I will have my freedom in this world, whatever my fate may be in the next." Robert Ingersoll
(09-03-2011 10:59 PM)BlackEyedGhost Wrote:  Perhaps I didn't phrase that as well as I could have. My point was that the Bible was subject to the viewpoints of people from the time they were written and we must look at it in that way.
-I remember a situation where it says that God hardened a man's heart, and in another place it says Satan hardened his heart (referring to the same exact situation) and in situations like that we need to look past how the people viewed it and see the point that his heart was hardened, regardless of what was behind it.
-So basically to discern which parts are the views of God, we need to take them in context and try to see the point(s) being made rather than how it's being made. You can make the Bible say anything you want when you take things out of context or misunderstand them, but if you make a point to understand and take things in context (not just of where in the Bible, but of the time period, the culture, etc.) then you'll be able to discern.

I would argue that in that case it also wouldn't be atheist, but rather something more like agnostic where you're not rejecting God outright, but rather are open to ideas. More of a blank slate where you neither reject nor understand the idea of God.

Thanks for your thoughts, and yes, you quoted us correctly.

See, it bothers me that an "all knowing and merciful" deity, did not have the foresight to communicate with us clearly. It seems much more likely that a fallible man wrote these pages, than an omniscient being inspired them.

If you're going to be basing your life around something, wouldn't you prefer it to be a little more clear? If you're going to preach against homosexuality, or against Islam, condoms, etc, shouldn't you be a little more concerned about the validity of what you're basing your arguments off of?

Of all the ideas put forth by science, it is the principle of Superposition that can undo any power of the gods. For the accumulation of smaller actions has the ability to create, destroy, and move the world.

"I am the master of my fate, I am the captain of my soul." -W. E. Henley
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09-03-2011, 11:54 PM
RE: Me is Christian. You no believe in God?
(09-03-2011 09:48 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  
(09-03-2011 11:41 AM)BlackEyedGhost Wrote:  2. Proves? Or supports the idea?

Proves.

Quote:3. Yes, science rocks. Archeology supports the Bible overwhelmingly.

No, it doesn't. It proves the Bible wrong. Overwhelmingly.

(09-03-2011 01:35 PM)BlackEyedGhost Wrote:  Also, the language at the time wasn't like anything we have now. It was a much more ... divine language that made much more sense and would thus be simpler to learn and use.

Your evidence for this?

Quote:It's unclear to you in the same way English is unclear to a newborn. It's not nonsensical, you just don't understand it.

And for this?

(09-03-2011 02:54 PM)BlackEyedGhost Wrote:  1: The Bible makes sense when you understand it

And for this?

Quote:Proof (legal-historical) lies in the agreement of the Bible and historical and archaeological evidence.

There is no such evidence.

Quote:Scientific evidence lies in Archeology.

Yes, it does. But not for the Bible.

Proves? Support evidence plz?

Here's a good site with some info on archaeology and the Bible:
http://www.christiananswers.net/archaeology/
I looked through this site and it has a few problems with it, but it gets the basic points across without overusing words. It's in a Q&A format, so yeah, if any of the questions make an interesting point to you, you should check it out. The first one "Reliability of the Bible" definitely has some good points.

That's written from a Christian perspective, not from any actual evidence apart from the Bible. If you wish you may discard it as stupid and I won't care, but it's what I think is true. I'm also not sure if there could be real proof since I'm not certain it was a written language as many languages now-a-days aren't. Also, the tower of babel happened very soon after the flood in the Bible, so any remnants of that language would likely be lost.

I understand it.... mostly. Also, some of the arguments made were very much born in misconception of the Bible.

(see above answer) Also, it's fairly 1=1 to say things make sense when you understand them, but that's a bit different from the current situation I guess.

This is also covered fairly well in the link i gave. However, to say there is no such proof wouldn't be entirely inaccurate since it relies on the legal-historical method where it must be proven beyond a reasonable doubt, and as the controversial subject this is, people will always consider a doubt at least somewhat reasonable.

(up again)

I'm interested to see what you think on this.
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10-03-2011, 12:13 AM
RE: Me is Christian. You no believe in God?
(09-03-2011 11:54 PM)BlackEyedGhost Wrote:  ...not from any actual evidence apart from the Bible...

You just shot yourself in the foot...

"I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason and intellect has intended us to forego their use." - Galileo

"Every man is guilty of all the good he did not do." - Voltaire
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10-03-2011, 12:27 AM (This post was last modified: 10-03-2011 12:33 AM by 13mentaculus.)
RE: Me is Christian. You no believe in God?
(09-03-2011 11:03 PM)Glaucus Wrote:  See, it bothers me that an "all knowing and merciful" deity, did not have the foresight to communicate with us clearly. It seems much more likely that a fallible man wrote these pages, than an omniscient being inspired them.
I think that the OP concedes that The Bible was written by Man.

And yes, I agree that there is a massive failure in communication here. If the message were clear, then we wouldn't have apologists saying things like...
(09-03-2011 10:59 PM)BlackEyedGhost Wrote:  -So basically to discern which parts are the views of God, we need to take them in context and try to see the point(s) being made rather than how it's being made. You can make the Bible say anything you want when you take things out of context or misunderstand them, but if you make a point to understand and take things in context (not just of where in the Bible, but of the time period, the culture, etc.) then you'll be able to discern.
In other words, we have to use The Bible to provide the basis for determining the context for which to interpret the messages in The Bible. Huh

It's like Glaucus said, why wouldn't God just communicate His message more clearly?
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10-03-2011, 12:59 AM
RE: Me is Christian. You no believe in God?
(09-03-2011 11:03 PM)Glaucus Wrote:  Ignoring an evidence based argument against religion, my biggest problem with religion is how it degrades us for being human. I get tired of hearing theists say that we are evil, wicked, and immoral beings, and we must grovel before a deity to repent for our innate wickedness. What is wrong with being human? Why are religions so against our humanity?

I also think that putting a deity behind this world takes away the beauty of it. What meaning comes from a stranger helping me, if they're only doing it because Yahweh willed it? I can put meaning into my life through my actions and what I leave behind. Saying Yahweh is the cause of my good deeds just makes me a pawn in a game. I prefer not to think of this life as simply a game or test, and I'm not going to spend this life preparing for the next (I'll enjoy that life when I get there, but not a moment before).

"I will have my freedom in this world, whatever my fate may be in the next." Robert Ingersoll

See, it bothers me that an "all knowing and merciful" deity, did not have the foresight to communicate with us clearly. It seems much more likely that a fallible man wrote these pages, than an omniscient being inspired them.

If you're going to be basing your life around something, wouldn't you prefer it to be a little more clear? If you're going to preach against homosexuality, or against Islam, condoms, etc, shouldn't you be a little more concerned about the validity of what you're basing your arguments off of?

Evidence based arguments only scratch the surface. You need some real philosophical input in order to get to the core of what we're talking about. So, I like the path you chose with this.

Your first point is something that it at the core of my thoughts. One of the most common (if not the most common) problems people have with Christians is that they're hypocritical and intolerant. Christians never make a point to understand people, they just throw things at them and tell them they're wrong. It really makes me mad. The whole reason that Jesus came to Earth was to free us from having to be perfect so that we could be who we are and enjoy what God made for us. The only people I recall Jesus ever getting mad at weren't the people outside of the church, but were the leaders of the church and the devout believers who had totally taken what God said and destroyed it in the same way people do now. So, as a Christian, I believe we all are entitled to be human and screw up and have to learn things the hard way or whatever. The idea Christians are supposed to convey is caring, not punishment.

What about doing it because you genuinely care about the person like Christians are supposed to? And I mean that not out of a sense of duty, but in the sense of feeling like it's right and you want to.

God is good and is the source of all that is good, but we're much more than pawns. We're created in His image and are meant to be good things. This life isn't just a game or test, it's life. It's our chance to have an impact, to enjoy His creation, to create things ourselves, and so much more. God gave us all that we have and I can't think of a better way to thank Him for all of it than to enjoy what we can and fight for what we love.

I really wish more Christians understood the ideas that you've put forth. Unfortunately Christians all too often think they should be closed-minded because they can't allow others to pull them into their ways, but really they're missing opportunities to learn what God really has in store for them.


Well, it's both. A fallible man wrote them after he was inspired to do so by God, so there's both to think about. It was written in very clear terms for the people at the time they were written, but since that was in different languages and cultures we have today, the meaning is lost to those who don't look for it. But God also created the universe and speaks to us through that. God communicates very clearly, but we never fail to misunderstand somehow.

It's clear as crystal to me. I know the things I should and shouldn't do for the most part and why. I know that I'm human and won't always do those things. I know that others are human and will also not always do those things. I know some things trap people and they can't get out of the sin. I know that society breeds certain sins among people. I know that understanding things is critical to ... everything. And I also know that God wants us to know who He is, even if not by name.

People who preach things like that should be preaching to people who already have a base in Christianity. They should also be understanding of people who don't do those things. In case you haven't noticed, I have a large amount of issues with how many (not all) churches work in modern society.
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