Medical facepalm
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12-07-2013, 07:56 AM
RE: Medical facepalm
Chas is right. It's eastern medicine with no empirical basis to show it can relieve pain.

http://www.quackwatch.com/search/webglim...upuncture+

"The conditions claimed to respond to acupuncture include chronic pain (neck and back pain, migraine headaches), acute injury-related pain (strains, muscle and ligament tears), gastrointestinal problems (indigestion, ulcers, constipation, diarrhea), cardiovascular conditions (high and low blood pressure), genitourinary problems (menstrual irregularity, frigidity, impotence), muscle and nerve conditions (paralysis, deafness), and behavioral problems (overeating, drug dependence, smoking). However, the evidence supporting these claims consists mostly of practitioners' observations and poorly designed studies. A controlled study found that electroacupuncture of the ear was no more effective than placebo stimulation (light touching) against chronic pain . In 1990, three Dutch epidemiologists analyzed 51 controlled studies of acupuncture for chronic pain and concluded that "the quality of even the better studies proved to be mediocre. . . . The efficacy of acupuncture in the treatment of chronic pain remains doubtful." They also examined reports of acupuncture used to treat addictions to cigarettes, heroin, and alcohol, and concluded that claims that acupuncture is effective as a therapy for these conditions are not supported by sound clinical research .

Acupuncture anesthesia is not used for surgery in the Orient to the extent that its proponents suggest. In China physicians screen out patients who appear to be unsuitable. Acupuncture is not used for emergency surgery and often is accompanied by local anesthesia or narcotic medication .

How acupuncture may relieve pain is unclear. One theory suggests that pain impulses are blocked from reaching the spinal cord or brain at various "gates" to these areas. Another theory suggests that acupuncture stimulates the body to produce narcotic-like substances called endorphins, which reduce pain. Other theories suggest that the placebo effect, external suggestion (hypnosis), and cultural conditioning are important factors. Melzack and Wall note that pain relief produced by acupuncture can also be produced by many other types of sensory hyperstimulation, such as electricity and heat at acupuncture points and elsewhere in the body. They conclude that "the effectiveness of all of these forms of stimulation indicates that acupuncture is not a magical procedure but only one of many ways to produce analgesia by an intense sensory input." In 1981, the American Medical Association Council on Scientific Affairs noted that pain relief does not occur consistently or reproducibly in most people and does not operate at all in some people ."

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12-07-2013, 08:02 AM
RE: Medical facepalm
(12-07-2013 07:56 AM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  Chas is right. It's eastern medicine with no empirical basis to show it can relieve pain.

Well, there is evidence that it relieves pain in some people. Whether or not it is simply a placebo, however, is inconclusive.

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12-07-2013, 08:39 AM
RE: Medical facepalm
But that's just because it's difficult to construct a "control group" to do comparisons against, isn't it? My understanding is that both "fake acupuncture" (needles inserted into places that aren't supposed to be beneficial) and acupuncture done with skewers or the like that feel like something is happening but don't actually get inserted - that those are both as effective as the "real thing".

That said, the placebo effect is serious business and the more invasive it is the better it works. If you're looking for an effective placebo acupuncture is probably better than most alternatives.

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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12-07-2013, 08:45 AM
RE: Medical facepalm
(12-07-2013 08:02 AM)Logica Humano Wrote:  
(12-07-2013 07:56 AM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  Chas is right. It's eastern medicine with no empirical basis to show it can relieve pain.

Well, there is evidence that it relieves pain in some people. Whether or not it is simply a placebo, however, is inconclusive.

The fact that it's only effect is placebo is quite conclusive.Drinking Beverage

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12-07-2013, 10:01 AM
RE: Medical facepalm
I've heard of a study done with gene knockout rats looking at levels of natrual anti inflammatory molecules at the acupunture site. The gene knockout rats where a certain pathway was disabled showed no benefit.

I dont know if that study holds any weight though. I need to find it...

It kinda makes sense in my mind though. The body would recognise the needles as foreign and might start some kind of anti inflammatory response in that region which could reduce certain kinds of chronic pain. At least that my baseless speculation on a method of action. Dont know how long it lasts or how strong the effect is though if there is an effect.

Don't buy into that meridian or chakra crap though...

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12-07-2013, 10:03 AM
RE: Medical facepalm
(12-07-2013 08:02 AM)Logica Humano Wrote:  
(12-07-2013 07:56 AM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  Chas is right. It's eastern medicine with no empirical basis to show it can relieve pain.

Well, there is evidence that it relieves pain in some people. Whether or not it is simply a placebo, however, is inconclusive.

Did you read the link in my post? Acupuncture has been studied and never been demonstrated to relieve pain. The closest thing it can do is provide a placebo effect.

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12-07-2013, 10:06 AM
RE: Medical facepalm
One also has to take into account that the practitioner could be bad. I doubt the training is all that extensive.

If I were in constant pain, I would try this because it can't hurt, it isn't totally out if it's woo or not, and the benefit would be so very great if it did work.

If it doesn't work, it doesn't work. If it does - man, getting rid of constant pain is so valuable, it surely is worth exploration.

And what Deep said makes sense.

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13-07-2013, 09:26 PM
RE: Medical facepalm
I went in for acupuncture years ago and it seemed to help. My understanding is that it releases a natural endorphins in the brain. Bee sting venom has also been used and I suppose it too causes endorphins to release. The same thing with capsaicin from hot peppers. The runners high from the pain of long distance running also releases endorphins. I think it's all the same response from the body. Something is shocking the body just enough to release a natural pain killer. All the Chi stuff and sticking the needles in certain specific pathways prescribed two thousand years ago is just added drama and smoke and mirrors crap. But it really worked for me. The needles don't hurt. They're about the width of a human hair and slightly irritating. I actually fell asleep during the treatment. Felt great for a month or two but couldn't afford to go back because insurance didn't pay for it. What the hell, give it a try.

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13-07-2013, 09:33 PM
RE: Medical facepalm
At this point I am ready for voodoo dolls and chicken blood...

I may speak to a pain management doc here in town to see what he says. The MD with a side of acupuncture is not my first choice...but after all this time I am starting to be open to things that I never thought I would have been.

The one med they will give doesn't help and I feel groggy in the morning if I take it so it's not exactly helpful.

Still considering options that don't involve the black market though that's not off the table if I don't get some relief.

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13-07-2013, 10:21 PM
RE: Medical facepalm
(11-07-2013 09:31 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(11-07-2013 08:53 PM)Anjele Wrote:  UGH...acupuncture...really...Hobo

Girly don't think it's woo, but Chas probably does. Tongue Manly is going through physical therapy and they're doing something called "dry needling". I said that sounds like acupuncture except American style where we say fuck that superficial stimulation shit, I'm going straight into the nerve nexus.

Like she prolly doesn't get enough "needling" at home 'oreddy. Tongue

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