Meet the Skeptical Atheistic Engineer
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02-09-2013, 03:44 PM
Meet the Skeptical Atheistic Engineer
Here's one guy you might like. You may have heard about him, but if you look at him closer, you'll see something. You'll see he's outspoken like James Randi, educated in natural sciences like Richard Dawkins, philosophical, logical and semantical like Daniel Dennet, recommending Michael Shermer and progressive like Nikola Tesla. He's a lot like the famous scientist Buckminster fuller. He's very rare in his ability to combine technical and social knowledge into one system. He's deterministic, but never fatalistic.

Meet Jacque Fresco. You see, he's one of us Wink













How young Jacque thought about God:




Experiences with religious people. Can we be Christian in the current system? Do Christian expect money and capitalism in Heaven? Why do they promote in on Earth?




Economy talk, religious system of law, scientific system as more useful:




Is there any free will in the nature? Do we have free will?




What does it mean to be human? What is true love?




What are politicians good for? Can they solve problems?




What drives our behavior? What is the source of corruption?




What does Jacque think about capitalism?




He also seems rather critical of money and war.




Yet he does not agree with Communism either. Is it really that communism also has no actual, technical solutions to problems?




What's his problem?




So what is the solution to this all? Are all our problems,from religious and economic to politics and war inherent in the current system? Can we design a system that does not produce such effects?




You'll find that on Youtube Jacque Fresco talks about almost any topic, just look it up. I found his lectures most enlightening, yet very sobering. You see, he's skeptical as any outspoken atheist, yet he applies this skepticism to everything, including the way we push money around, or try to make people behave by rules and laws. If you like listening to skeptics like Dawkins or Aron Ra, you're going to love this one.

Please watch, comment, discuss, ask questions.

You see, religion and atheism isn't that much of a problem with me, I can get along with either or argue with both. I like to seek otherness, newness. That's why I'm here, anyway. But I noticed you guys really like your stuff, you like to discuss atheism and religion all over again, till you're blue in the face. Human morality, nature and nurture is endless source of wonder for you. And Fresco inspired me, he talked about bridging the differences by focusing on what we have in common. So I try to present Fresco himself. I see that people, atheists or not, like the most what is familiar. They still like their nation, their political party, their opinions on economy... What if these are almost as questionable as your former belief in God? What if you could lose faith in them as well? You already lost your faith once. Every single atheist I've met says, that he would never go back into the religion and I find that very encouraging. You love truth and you would never go back on your word. But how willing are you to go forward?
Imagine, how difficult it once was for you to comprehend atheism. If you were a believer, you could not imagine how is it to be a non. You have seen painted all sorts of things on the image of atheists. If religion is natural and moral, what is someone who has no religion?

You are wiser than that now. So let's try it one more time. Can you imagine, that there can be such a thing as atheism of laws and states, atheism of money, atheism of labor? Something that contradicts your beliefs, something that you can not imagine with your present knowledge? Something, that can help you to be an even better thinker? Did you ever find strange, that scientists sent men on the Moon and simulated the origins of the universe, but they never touched the origins of crime, war and poverty? Why do scientists design better weapons for the police, but they don't design better prisons, that leave men better than when they got in? Is human nature really a tougher nut to crack than black holes and quantum effects?




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02-09-2013, 10:14 PM
RE: Meet the Skeptical Atheistic Engineer
Dreamers change the world for the better. It just takes the right dream, at the right time to find the chink in the armor of a hardened world of mistrust to create a better reality. Let's hope it happens before it becomes too late.

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
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03-09-2013, 04:25 PM (This post was last modified: 03-09-2013 04:34 PM by Luminon.)
RE: Meet the Skeptical Atheistic Engineer
(02-09-2013 10:14 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  Dreamers change the world for the better. It just takes the right dream, at the right time to find the chink in the armor of a hardened world of mistrust to create a better reality. Let's hope it happens before it becomes too late.
Fresco doesn't dream, he's more realistic than anyone else. He takes a real technology of today and applies it in a more efficient way. We use money and human labor to ration resources and that is an outdated, inefficient practice. We are poor because of that. A machine can work more efficiently than the strongest and most intelligent human being ever. Humans as the source of labor are hopelessly obsolete and money keeps us prisoners of this inefficient economy.
There was just one time when we faced the reality that money limit us in productivity.

At the beginning of World War II the US had a mere 600 or so first-class fighting aircraft. We rapidly overcame this short supply by turning out more than 90,000 planes a year. The question at the start of World War II was: Do we have enough funds to produce the required implements of war? The answer was no, we did not have enough money, nor did we have enough gold; but we did have more than enough resources. It was the available resources that enabled the US to achieve the high production and efficiency required to win the war. Unfortunately this is only considered in times of war.

I think Fresco would greatly appeal to atheistic community, because he's an original thinker. That's why I started with videos on religion, you like that stuff guys, right? He taught me more about human behavior and beliefs.
At one side, he criticizes Christianity harshly. But on the other side, he says, his economic system is Christianity. It's about feeding people, clothing them, providing them food without sowing and reaping. It's bringing Heaven on Earth! There will be no money in Heaven. When Christians talk about Kingdom of Heaven on Earth, about this peaceful life style, where a lion will lie along a lamb, there is really no way to achieve it, but through Fresco's automated economy and behavioral science. Fresco managed to train wild animals to alter their behavior. He trained alligators not to attack swimming children. He conditioned them. He conditioned a snake not to eat a mouse. He could train insects as well. He trained a pig to take a shower and to change its bed sheets. Maybe he could achieve the same with college students Big Grin







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03-09-2013, 04:42 PM
RE: Meet the Skeptical Atheistic Engineer
Only problem I have with the Venus Project is they seem to spend all their time and energy designing funky buildings, and making models... If they really want to change the world, why don't they crack on with it?

They remind me a bit of the People's Front of Judea, lots of talking and writing, very little action.

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03-09-2013, 05:23 PM (This post was last modified: 03-09-2013 05:49 PM by Luminon.)
RE: Meet the Skeptical Atheistic Engineer
(03-09-2013 04:42 PM)Paranoidsam Wrote:  Only problem I have with the Venus Project is they seem to spend all their time and energy designing funky buildings, and making models... If they really want to change the world, why don't they crack on with it?

They remind me a bit of the People's Front of Judea, lots of talking and writing, very little action.
What do you mean by crack on? You mean, like move forward? Make it happen?

Well, building the research center would be pretty much like building a Houston space center or Silicon Valley, for much the same purpose. It needs a funding, probably by some country like Iceland or Brazil, or by the United Nations.

So TVP does the most sensible thing at the moment, prepare presentation projects. It plans a major motion picture (even considered to hire Roland Emmerich if someone will sponsor that) and I definitely heard about a computer simulation of TVP. This simulation should be accessible as a MMORPG. Originally through CryEngine, but by the time the models are prepared, there will be much better engines around. And I think I heard something about a TV show based on TVP.

TVP will probably become high in demand when the current system collapses, which unfortunately seems inevitable. People are being put out of work by machines, their purchasing power is going, rich become richer, poor poorer and dollar is still more and more in debt. This bubble is going to burst and then people will hate the very sight of money and will want something that uses no money at all. After that happens, all will depend on how many people know about this. And believe me, people are stupid or deeply invested into their current system. When they see TVP, they ask, where is the secret police, fascist army, secret prisons and torture chambers? It must be in there somewhere, or it won't work, people won't do as Fresco orders them! You need laws, police and money! Human needs are infinite and you need policemen to beat them down! That's how they think.
I had a very difficult time to explain that TVP does not have a legal element, it does not use a written law, enforced by state power, there is no power or state or law, so you should not ask about these, you should ask about the great many things that are there to replace the law and make it obsolete. That's what I was trying to explain.

If you want to know the news, what people are working on, look at the seminars, for example.
http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL8...LSGO9gmyB5

But, looks like BBC took some notice!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-23799590

There is nothing like TVP out there. There is Masdar city, but it's still based on capitalism, on business and designed to function in the desert. TVP uses permaculture to convert desert to lush forest and orchards and then builds a city there, of universal design and cheap parts. That's what I call good thinking.

Microsoft sponsors a futuristic city as well. The programmers and engineers visited the policemen, to help them develop better tools to watch streets and fight crime. If these people weren't completely stupid, they would go to prisons to meet the criminals and find out what in the cities made them commit crimes. But nope, they have a vague idea that policeman equals safety and that crime just happens for no reason.
I can't find the article right now, but it featured a video.
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03-09-2013, 07:55 PM
RE: Meet the Skeptical Atheistic Engineer
(02-09-2013 03:44 PM)Luminon Wrote:  Here's one guy you might like. You may have heard about him, but if you look at him closer, you'll see something. You'll see he's outspoken like James Randi, educated in natural sciences like Richard Dawkins, philosophical, logical and semantical like Daniel Dennet, recommending Michael Shermer and progressive like Nikola Tesla. He's a lot like the famous scientist Buckminster fuller. He's very rare in his ability to combine technical and social knowledge into one system. He's deterministic, but never fatalistic.

Meet Jacque Fresco. You see, he's one of us Wink













How young Jacque thought about God:




Experiences with religious people. Can we be Christian in the current system? Do Christian expect money and capitalism in Heaven? Why do they promote in on Earth?




Economy talk, religious system of law, scientific system as more useful:




Is there any free will in the nature? Do we have free will?




What does it mean to be human? What is true love?




What are politicians good for? Can they solve problems?




What drives our behavior? What is the source of corruption?




What does Jacque think about capitalism?




He also seems rather critical of money and war.




Yet he does not agree with Communism either. Is it really that communism also has no actual, technical solutions to problems?




What's his problem?




So what is the solution to this all? Are all our problems,from religious and economic to politics and war inherent in the current system? Can we design a system that does not produce such effects?




You'll find that on Youtube Jacque Fresco talks about almost any topic, just look it up. I found his lectures most enlightening, yet very sobering. You see, he's skeptical as any outspoken atheist, yet he applies this skepticism to everything, including the way we push money around, or try to make people behave by rules and laws. If you like listening to skeptics like Dawkins or Aron Ra, you're going to love this one.

Please watch, comment, discuss, ask questions.

You see, religion and atheism isn't that much of a problem with me, I can get along with either or argue with both. I like to seek otherness, newness. That's why I'm here, anyway. But I noticed you guys really like your stuff, you like to discuss atheism and religion all over again, till you're blue in the face. Human morality, nature and nurture is endless source of wonder for you. And Fresco inspired me, he talked about bridging the differences by focusing on what we have in common. So I try to present Fresco himself. I see that people, atheists or not, like the most what is familiar. They still like their nation, their political party, their opinions on economy... What if these are almost as questionable as your former belief in God? What if you could lose faith in them as well? You already lost your faith once. Every single atheist I've met says, that he would never go back into the religion and I find that very encouraging. You love truth and you would never go back on your word. But how willing are you to go forward?
Imagine, how difficult it once was for you to comprehend atheism. If you were a believer, you could not imagine how is it to be a non. You have seen painted all sorts of things on the image of atheists. If religion is natural and moral, what is someone who has no religion?

You are wiser than that now. So let's try it one more time. Can you imagine, that there can be such a thing as atheism of laws and states, atheism of money, atheism of labor? Something that contradicts your beliefs, something that you can not imagine with your present knowledge? Something, that can help you to be an even better thinker? Did you ever find strange, that scientists sent men on the Moon and simulated the origins of the universe, but they never touched the origins of crime, war and poverty? Why do scientists design better weapons for the police, but they don't design better prisons, that leave men better than when they got in? Is human nature really a tougher nut to crack than black holes and quantum effects?






Interesting, but take anything from Jacques Frescoo with a grain of salt.

From Rational Wki

Most people view this solution as a "utopian" vision that does not seem to be grounded in reality; in particular because it depends on the idea that people will not always sabotage or compete with one another. Critics of the idea often cite that human self-interest is a deeply ingrained human trait, whereas the Venus Project claims that self-interested behavior is a socialized condition. Critics will also cite the commonly-held belief that just because one does a day's work, that somehow gives them the right to get paid,[26] and that people will always demand compensation when contributing labor or investing any of themselves into the progress of society. The conclusion is that without some form of monetary compensation, people will have no motivation to participate or contribute in society.
Additional criticisms are based on the idea that even if the system could work in theory, it is highly susceptible to abuse by those in power. To support this, critics cite the historical examples of societies that came the closest to the vision of a centrally planned society, communism, where many goods were only available in sufficient quantity on the black market, because the intelligent resource distributors had decided that the proles did not require bourgeois luxuries, such as shoes. However, Fresco claims that there will be no power structure, as decisions will be entirely "arrived at" by non-humans.
"Who makes the decisions in a resource based economy? No one does. The process of arriving at decisions in this economy would not be based upon the opinions of politicians, corporate, or national interests but rather all decisions would be arrived at based upon the introduction of newer technologies and Earth's carrying capacity. Computers could provide this information with electronic sensors throughout the entire industrial, physical complex to arrive at more appropriate decisions." (Source: The Venus Project FAQ)

I have also seen a documentary on him called Future By Design. His facts are not always right and I noted some of the technology he had in the film, in particular the flying machines, were impractical.

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03-09-2013, 08:31 PM
RE: Meet the Skeptical Atheistic Engineer
I think at this point in humanity, the best we could feasibly aspire to would be for society to realize the ideology of TVP and strive to use available resources as efficiently as we can. Because everyone knows that there is enough to go around, and then some.

Sharing is something that selfish animals are not instinctively the best at. One day it may become necessary for us to learn the behavior.

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
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04-09-2013, 05:18 AM (This post was last modified: 04-09-2013 05:57 AM by Luminon.)
RE: Meet the Skeptical Atheistic Engineer
(03-09-2013 07:55 PM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  Interesting, but take anything from Jacques Frescoo with a grain of salt.

From Rational Wki

Most people view this solution as a "utopian" vision that does not seem to be grounded in reality; in particular because it depends on the idea that people will not always sabotage or compete with one another. Critics of the idea often cite that human self-interest is a deeply ingrained human trait, whereas the Venus Project claims that self-interested behavior is a socialized condition.
That's a misrepresentation! TVP does not go against human self-interest, it goes along with it. The current system goes against human self-interest, this is why we need to motivate people with money and force them with threats of the police and prison. All to do menial labor that machines can do a hundred times better. Our system is unscientific, it still uses carrot and stick, the carrot of greed and the stick of poverty. The science of human motivation is much ahead of today's economic practice. It's a fact that most people do not compete voluntarily, they compete because it gives them advantages in the environment. In an environment designed by Fresco, you do not have to compete. You do not have to cooperate either, but it is natural to do so, you'll do it without giving it a second thought, it poses you no disadvantage.
Rationalwiki does not mean the authors are well-informed. Fresco bases his view on first-hand observations of non-capitalistic cultures, such as Native Americans or Polynesians, before war, before missionaries.








(03-09-2013 07:55 PM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  Critics will also cite the commonly-held belief that just because one does a day's work, that somehow gives them the right to get paid,[26] and that people will always demand compensation when contributing labor or investing any of themselves into the progress of society. The conclusion is that without some form of monetary compensation, people will have no motivation to participate or contribute in society.
These critics do not understand the abundance producing and scarcity eliminating technical reality of today's technology applied in Fresco's design. TVP allows to build cities that will require only 5 % of population to have something resembling a day job, to keep it running. Obviously, there are many more volunteers than that even in our today's society and they spend many hours a week helping the community even besides their day job!
Those who need to get paid to do a given activity, just need to get educated to find an activity that they will want to do for the sake of itself. The cities does not need them to run or to give their labor involuntarily. They'll just go back to school to learn what are their true interests.

(03-09-2013 07:55 PM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  Additional criticisms are based on the idea that even if the system could work in theory, it is highly susceptible to abuse by those in power. To support this, critics cite the historical examples of societies that came the closest to the vision of a centrally planned society, communism, where many goods were only available in sufficient quantity on the black market, because the intelligent resource distributors had decided that the proles did not require bourgeois luxuries, such as shoes. However, Fresco claims that there will be no power structure, as decisions will be entirely "arrived at" by non-humans.
"Who makes the decisions in a resource based economy? No one does. The process of arriving at decisions in this economy would not be based upon the opinions of politicians, corporate, or national interests but rather all decisions would be arrived at based upon the introduction of newer technologies and Earth's carrying capacity. Computers could provide this information with electronic sensors throughout the entire industrial, physical complex to arrive at more appropriate decisions." (Source: The Venus Project FAQ)
This is again a misrepresentation. Most of goods & services will be handled in a standardized way by automation, direct on-demand production, up to the point of great variability thanks to technology like printers or automated cooking robots, already working today. And of course, automated sensors and robots...

However, the relatively smaller part, the development of the city and infrastructure itself and all the global science will be handled by cooperation of scientific generalists and specialist teams, who will conduct research studies and base their decisions on the results. There will be a committee of generalists and teams of specialists.
This is not a power structure. Generalists do not make decisions, they ask for all data necessary to make the decision obvious, from the specialist groups. Specialist groups don't get to choose which questions to answer or what project is it for and of course they must use the scientific method, double-blind protocols, publish the results, have them compared and reviewed.

It could be said every specialist has a power 15 minutes a day when asked by the committee, but he merely obeys his measuring instruments and samples, these hold the true power, these decide what is possible and what isn't.

Of course, all is with due internet transparency, nobody is paid for the job, there are no financial, political, military or religious interests to corrupt people. The scientists and especially new generations go through education designed by Fresco, which is much different from today's schools. It is not based on authority, obedience, memorizing and one right answer on every question. It is based on saying "I don't have the information, let's go find it out" when we don't know, instead of being punished for admitting when we don't know.

(03-09-2013 07:55 PM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  I have also seen a documentary on him called Future By Design. His facts are not always right and I noted some of the technology he had in the film, in particular the flying machines, were impractical.
They were not impractical, they were unfamiliar to you. Fresco has some impressive credentials from aircraft industry and many other areas. He did challenge the Bernoulli principle and reputedly designed an airplane that violates this supposedly universal principle. However, when he showed the design, nobody asked him "how does it work?" They told him, "that can never fly. What school did you go to?"
See, we don't know how to communicate rationally. When confronted with a new thing, we ask for credentials, stamps of approval from some authority we admire. We don't look for merits of the thing itself. We are corrupt, conditioned to resist change and keep things the same, afraid of new ideas. Many of us don't even trust their reason to tell a maniac from a practical visionary genius.
Leonardo da Vinci was a genius and his inventions were practical. However, when it came to social sciences, he was just as brainwashed as everyone else, he designed the machines of war, instead ways to prevent wars. Fresco refused to design better bombs, he lied that he can't design a bomb that would explode sideways and kill more people.

Fresco had very bad experiences with industrial property and patents, all the thousands of inventions he created are property and patents of his employers. This is why his own inventions are kept private, all the things that can be patented. If you visit his ranch in Florida, he does take tours every Sunday or so, he will show you much of it, tell you how it works, anything but the patentable stuff.
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04-09-2013, 05:25 AM (This post was last modified: 04-09-2013 05:29 AM by Luminon.)
RE: Meet the Skeptical Atheistic Engineer
(03-09-2013 08:31 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  I think at this point in humanity, the best we could feasibly aspire to would be for society to realize the ideology of TVP and strive to use available resources as efficiently as we can. Because everyone knows that there is enough to go around, and then some.

Sharing is something that selfish animals are not instinctively the best at. One day it may become necessary for us to learn the behavior.
Sharing is very easy, if we eliminate scarcity either though technology or through natural abundance of ecosystem and less people than they could overuse it.
If there is a waterfall of fresh water and next to it banana and cocoa groves, then there are no good or bad people. Everyone is good, everyone shares, there is no conflict, no price tags, no laws, no police or prison.
All it takes is to use contraception, not to have too many children, who would grow into thousands and overrun the place. The tribesmen of Tuamotu had to send their children away on a canoe to "find their own island". They also committed suicides due to toothache. Otherwise, 90 % of the time they were much happier than us.

We can simulate these conditions by automated mass production of everything on demand. We have contraception and dentists. We can be happy 100 % of the time.
Of course we need a language that does not have idiotic concepts that create conflicts and misunderstanding. For example, the concept of "infinite private property" or that "everyone has the right to their opinion", that's an idiotic thing. We also need an education that allows us to solve problems instead of sitting around and grieving, or breaking things out of frustration. Fresco has great many talks on psychology, life style, language, education, motivation and problem solving. All very sober and no-nonsense.
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25-09-2013, 01:34 AM
RE: Meet the Skeptical Atheistic Engineer
Jacque fresco is a self educated structural engineer and futurist. He has a great vision to restructure the society through worldwide utilization of theoretical design. I want to salute this man because of his aim and vision of creating an economic system in which, goods, services, and information are free.
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