Megachurch wants choir to sign anti-gay covenant
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21-03-2011, 08:28 PM
RE: Megachurch wants choir to sign anti-gay covenant
But they make shit up all the time. All of them, from all different churches, pick and choose the parts that they would like to apply.

As far as Ms. Schuller goes, I have mixed feelings. I agree that she's totally full of shit. It's her show though. If people have an issue with the way she's running things, they should take their little selves elsewhere. With all the churches in existence, it should be easy for people to find one that's in line with their own personal beliefs.

But but I want to call the Crystal Cathedral my church! Because it is so awesome!!!1!1

The more these bigots are supported, the more they believe they are right. As long as people keep doing things her way, and giving up their money to her, things will stay the same.

From reading the article, it looks like things might be going in the right direction for this church. Wink

My reason for being is to serve as a cat cushion. That is good enough for me. Wink
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21-03-2011, 09:11 PM
RE: Megachurch wants choir to sign anti-gay covenant
From what I know most christian apologists don't tend to follow their apologetic philosophies outside of times with close relations. Generally they are just as Christian as the non apologetics in the face of strangers. Unless of course that stranger is having a theological debate with them. Cause you know, they gotta look good for the debate. If they were really as apologetic as they suggest they'd be agnostics.

Also there are many who will not do something themselves, but fully back an authority figure doing the action with the excuse of religion. Because the bible advises the action, so it's not wrong. I get a lot of experience with a wide range of Christians. Missouri is a loud place >.>

I'm not a non believer, I believe in the possibility of anything. I just don't let the actuality of something be determined by a 3rd party.
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22-03-2011, 03:05 AM
RE: Megachurch wants choir to sign anti-gay covenant
The relevant point here is that while progressive Christians are condemning Schuller for her anti-gay position, she happens to have the full weight of the Bible on her side. I fail to see where God gives her any choice about the acceptance of gays at all. He seems to be rather strict about adherence to the rules. (See the Old Testament for examples.) Perhaps the progressives who are at odds with God's Infallible Word on this issue should question whether or not they should continue to worship such an intolerant bigot. Or, since they seem to have embraced the idea that their religion can evolve to reflect the current moral standards of more tolerant and educated people than those ignorant savages who wrote the Bible, they should give their heads a shake and ask themselves two very simple questions- is the Bible the infallible word of God- as it clearly claims to be- or not? And if not, why not?

The way to see by Faith, is to shut the eye of Reason. - Ben Franklin
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22-03-2011, 05:53 AM
RE: Megachurch wants choir to sign anti-gay covenant
trillium - agree. It's well within her rights to take these positions and her members can choose to sign or to leave. Life is about choices and she is offering one.

hotrodmike - completely agree. Her position is consistent with the bronze age document written by goat herders and all should bow to its wisdom because that is exactly what the book says. It's not even one of those ambiguous things that is left to some interpretation. The bibles view on homosexuality is very clear. As for your last line, I could not have said it better myself (and I've certainly tried).

Btw, you're not by chance a fan of the "music" of Robbie Dupree, are you? If so, well, we will just have to try to find a way to coexist anyway.

Shackle their minds when they're bent on the cross
When ignorance reigns, life is lost
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22-03-2011, 08:45 AM
RE: Megachurch wants choir to sign anti-gay covenant
Hey, BnW.

Quote:You should change your handle from "Ghost" to "Apologist".

And you should change your name from "BnW" to "Bigot".
Quote:A bigot is a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices, especially one exhibiting intolerance, and animosity toward those of differing beliefs.

I'm sorry if my ability to see the faults in a system or a segment of a system without feeling the need to condemn the entire system and everyone in it is shocking to you, but some of us are incapable of shoving our own head up our ass.

If you'd read what I wrote, you would have noted that I was pointing out problems with the church and condemning this woman in pretty strong terms. But no, all you can see is how I disagree with your hatred and universal condemnation of the church and that makes me a target. You're fucking transparent.

If you want to cling tenaciously to your hatred in the face of facts (like there being Christian churches that welcome homosexuals with open arms) that's fine, but don't go attack dog on me for pointing these things out. I'm sick of it.

Quote:And, I'm pretty certain that homosexuality being a sin is not a minority opinion either within the many variants of Christianity or the other large monotheistic religions. They are all homophobic.

Ah yes. The famous study from The Crack of Your Ass Institute. Where would you be without their guidance?
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22-03-2011, 10:09 AM
RE: Megachurch wants choir to sign anti-gay covenant
I'm at a loss to understand what I said that was bigoted. The bible says what it says. The believers believe what they believe. The fact that some people reject the words of the bible does not change the fact that the book is pretty clear.

And, I did read what you wrote. Every word of it. I realize your pointing out problems with that church and that woman and it was done in pretty strong terms and then tried to distance her from what you seem to perceive as the great majority of Christians who have a completely different view on gays. I think the idea that she's not the norm is pure crap and this need to defend the faith from one of its most basic beliefs is where my "apologist" comment came from. Where are all the churches coming out to stand up against her? Where is the mass outrage in the Christian community? We both know the answer to these questions, the difference is you seem to want to deny it.

And, yes, I'm aware there are church's that welcome gays. The Episcopalians had a gay bishop, and it split the church completely apart.

Finally, as for your contention that I'm wrong and you're right and the majority of Christians don't take that stand on homosexuals, please provide your study to the contrary. I base my opinion on a few things, including:

- the fact that the largest sect of Christianity, the Catholic Church, is adamant that homosexuality is a sin. In 2008 there were 1.166 billion baptized Catholics worldwide, roughly 17% of the worlds population. That doesn't seem like a minority to me
- California, probably the most liberal state in the US, over turned gay marriage with a popular vote that was fueled with religious rhetoric
- the overwhelming polls that consistently show that Christians are against homosexuality (I'm only focusing on Christianity since that seems to be your argument). And, secondary to the polls is the constant fight against gay marriage in the US.

So, your counter to this is what? That you know Christians who don't agree? You know a Catholic who thinks gays should married? So what? Those people are outside the faith. The faith, and the religion, is what it is. These are not my rules and pointing them out does not make me a bigot.

Shackle their minds when they're bent on the cross
When ignorance reigns, life is lost
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22-03-2011, 11:25 AM
RE: Megachurch wants choir to sign anti-gay covenant
Hey, BnW.

I don't have a study to cite. But that doesn't exonerate you of talking out of your ass. I don't know what the answer is but I know that you don't either. The difference between us is that I'm not trumpeting BS.

1.166 billion Catholics and the Pope calls homosexuality a sin. Ok. Because we all know that all Catholics everywhere do exactly as the Pope says and they never ignore him and never defy him. Like condoms. When the Pope said don't use condoms, clearly every Catholic obeyed.

That's your problem. You speak of groups in generalities. You say all X are. That's the basis of discrimination. You don't see humans. You see statistics and enemies.

Your ability to accuse people of things and then act like you're shocked when they tell you to stuff it is staggering. I've told you this a million times, you have a tendency to attack people. I've never tolerated it from you and I never will. If you don't see it, fine, but don't expect me to change my tune.

Quote:Where are all the churches coming out to stand up against her? Where is the mass outrage in the Christian community? We both know the answer to these questions, the difference is you seem to want to deny it.

You know for fact that I think Harris' assertion that moderates are where the extreme get their support from is bunk. And that's what this woman is, the extreme. Where are all the Christian groups coming out to support her? You know the answer to that question but you seem to want to deny it.

Quote:And, yes, I'm aware there are church's that welcome gays. The Episcopalians had a gay bishop, and it split the church completely apart.

All cultures are subject to selection and evolution. Change doesn't occur just because you want it to. It's a process. And if it's not happening on your schedule, you dismiss it. Where you see something negative, I see half of the Episcopalian church selecting new, more tolerant memes and discarding the old. I see positive change. That's one of the reasons I call you a bigot. You see everything through hatred-coloured glasses.

In hockey there is a statistic called plus/minus. You take any given player and take the number of goals scored while he was on the ice and subtract the number of goals scored against his team when he was on the ice. If the number is positive, he's said to have had a good season. If the number is negative, not so good.

As far as I'm concerned, religion has a negative plus/minus score. There are a ton of positive things that religion provides but my feeling is that on balance it's negative. Incidentally, I think the same of civilisation. Lots of good, but negative on balance. But what I do not do is say, "Ha! Negative! Therefore everything they do is shit!" Because I'm smarter than that and you should be too.

Does this woman host a very misguided idea? As far as I'm concerned, yes she does. Does this one minister represent all of Christianity? Absolutely not. Does this meme have a representation in the Christian meme pool? Of course it does. Does that mean every Christian hosts it? Not a chance. But if you strip Christians of their humanity, you eliminate the possibility that not every Christian is a biblical literalist and that not every Christian observes the dark parts of the bible and that many Christians discard the dark parts of the bible because they believe that it's trumped by Jesus and his message and that many Christians are capable of identifying hatred when they see it.

You wanna call me an apologist because I'm saying, "Slow down. Sure this woman is an extremist and sure we all disagree with her, but make sure you don't condemn an entire people for the actions of a single woman," you go right ahead. But level heads know better.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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22-03-2011, 11:29 AM
 
RE: Megachurch wants choir to sign anti-gay covenant
(21-03-2011 06:47 PM)ConditionYellow Wrote:  
(21-03-2011 01:59 PM)Ghost Wrote:  We must always rememeber that this is not Christianity, but a sect of it. I know plenty of Christian ministers who have absoulutely zero problem with homosexuality or pre-marital sex and plenty of homosexual Christians as well.

"If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them." -Leviticus 20:13

You either believe the Bible is the word of God or you do not. If you decide you don't like certain bits and just ignore or dismiss them, then who are you to say which bits those are?
Ah but Leviticus is usually cited by those that are Fundamentally bigoted in the name of their Christian faith, excusing the Bible as cause rather than their own free will to be so.

If one is going to be Fundamentalist Christian in that regard of bigotry toward Homosexuals, they must be Fundamentally obedient to all of God's laws or it is they who are electing what "bits" to adhere to.

Leviticus was the Holiness Code, set out so as to command the Hebrews to adhere to a unique and godly code that would then set them apart from other tribes or neighboring communities. Applied to both the lay Hebrew community and the Priestly class.

That being said most Fundamentalists today would be either dead or prohibited from entering into their chosen house of worship, (Leviticus 21–22) were they to adhere as ardently to all of Leviticus as do the bigots 20:13.
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22-03-2011, 01:45 PM
RE: Megachurch wants choir to sign anti-gay covenant
(22-03-2011 11:25 AM)Ghost Wrote:  Hey, BnW.

I don't have a study to cite. But that doesn't exonerate you of talking out of your ass. I don't know what the answer is but I know that you don't either. The difference between us is that I'm not trumpeting BS.

Your comment was a follows:

We must always rememeber that this is not Christianity, but a sect of it.

That reads like a fairly definitive statement. As for you knowing ministers who don't fall into this thinking, on what basis do you say they are a majority?

(22-03-2011 11:25 AM)Ghost Wrote:  1.166 billion Catholics and the Pope calls homosexuality a sin. Ok. Because we all know that all Catholics everywhere do exactly as the Pope says and they never ignore him and never defy him. Like condoms. When the Pope said don't use condoms, clearly every Catholic obeyed.

Whether individual Catholics follow the edicts from the pope is irrelevant. It's completely besides the point. The pope states that, per god, the use of condoms is a sin and if you use one you are going to hell. That's the tenant of the religion. A catholic who is really a catholic, really believes in the religion, papal infallibility, and the whole thing then either obeys the pope or is (in their opinion) going to hell. Religion does not offer a middle ground here. The bible is real or it is not. It is all real and all true or none of it is. When you start cherry picking it, when you say "I'll believe this part but not that part", then you are firmly in the realm of "just making shit up" because there is no authority to back up your position. The bible is an authority unto itself. You believe it or you don't. That's the point.

As for the condom example, if you want to argue that the bible does not specifically address either condoms or papal infallibility and there is a loop hole on that one, then I'll accept that for argument sake. However, the homosexuality issue comes directly from the book itself. You believe the book or you don't.

(22-03-2011 11:25 AM)Ghost Wrote:  That's your problem. You speak of groups in generalities. You say all X are. That's the basis of discrimination. You don't see humans. You see statistics and enemies.

You're missing the point here. My comments have nothing to do with individuals who belong to a church. My point is that this is what the religion is; the three major monotheistic religions are homophobic, misogynist and violent towards those who don't buy in. This is not me projecting my prejudices on them. This is what they are by their own words from their own book. The position that only a small sect accept this to be true is just blatantly false. We've had thousands of years of history to show that is blatantly fall. And, to the extent that modern believers are more enlightened or don't all accept this, then I'm back to the point that they have wondered off the path of what these books - the authority of their religion - and created new beliefs out of nothing. Once again, the bible is very clear on the issue of homosexuality. If you believe in the god of the bible and you are gay, you pretty much have to believe you've damned yourself. There is no basis for a contrary belief. An individual can certainly chose to believe something else, but that's not the religion.

(22-03-2011 11:25 AM)Ghost Wrote:  Your ability to accuse people of things and then act like you're shocked when they tell you to stuff it is staggering. I've told you this a million times, you have a tendency to attack people. I've never tolerated it from you and I never will. If you don't see it, fine, but don't expect me to change my tune.

I'm not sure where I acted shocked. I'm equally not sure what I accused you of, unless "apologist" is an accusation. If it is, then I'll cop to that one. As for the "attacking people" comment, you should really go back and check out your own writing style and how you approach people. Feel free to look at posts that don't involve me. As much as it pains me to say this, we're more alike than you wish to admit. The actual difference is I don't deny it, but you do.

anyway, moving on....

(22-03-2011 11:25 AM)Ghost Wrote:  You know for fact that I think Harris' assertion that moderates are where the extreme get their support from is bunk. And that's what this woman is, the extreme. Where are all the Christian groups coming out to support her? You know the answer to that question but you seem to want to deny it.

She is constantly supported. No one has to come out and overtly say "we're with you!" because there is no shortage of churches and religious people putting forth the same position she is every day. I have gay friends and I see what they put up with from these god fearing, all loving people and they put up with it all the time. This bimbo has a non-stop support group for her point of view.

I'm going to address the rest without quoting your specific passages so sorry if you lose the plot at all here.

Yes, I realize that cultures evolve over time, or at least they should. Religion, however, is not the same as culture. Religion is a belief system based on, so it claims, the inerrant word of god. God took the time to write down his story, his rules, and his requirements for worshiping him. If you believe in god then his rules and requirements are not subject to mans whimsical changes of mind or evolving standards of morality. Yes, there are people within religion who try fervently to re-write the rules, change the meanings, and rationalize these documents with the modern world because they want the best of both worlds. But, that is not true to the religion. You can't just change the rules as you go. When you do then, again, you are in the realm of just making shit up. There is no way around that. The bible is real or it is not.

I would be a bigot if I was judging people based on some standard that I set up. I'm not doing that. I'm judging them by the standards they have set up for themselves. And yes, again, I realize that a growing number of people are more socially religious then anything. They join churches, they sing the psalms and listen to the sermons, and then they go back to their lives. We've had discussions about the impacts of moderates and religion here before and you've disagreed with what some of us believe on the topic. I won't rehash it again but the basic point here is I'm not judging individuals but religion as a group? Yes, that I've got a very firm view of and it's not at all positive.

Finally, on the point of believing or not believing - I'm not an atheist because I find religion to so often be at odds with my own values. I'm an atheist because I see no evidence of god. But, if I did, then I'd have a serious problem because the old testament presents me with a whole bunch of moral conundrums that I could not reconcile.

Shackle their minds when they're bent on the cross
When ignorance reigns, life is lost
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22-03-2011, 02:30 PM
 
RE: Megachurch wants choir to sign anti-gay covenant
By the by, Ghost is this you? >LINK< Just curious. I saw the screen name and thought of you, so I thought I'd ask if it is you. (Obviously! Jeesh, like I had to say that. *thumps self, then eats eclair as punishment* hahaha
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