Megachurch wants choir to sign anti-gay covenant
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22-03-2011, 03:27 PM
RE: Megachurch wants choir to sign anti-gay covenant
I have to agree with BnW.
And to put it in my own words , I hate the religion not the religious necessarily.
The idea of the Christian faith that gay men are foul is a horrible doctrine that I hate.
I don't hate believers but in the end , believers define themselves by the book.
When they choose a different definition for themselves based on something other than their bronze age tyranny manual then we can talk but as long as Christian is someone who believes in Christ and the bible - we have a problem.
I don't hate the people per say because they can change opinions and evolve different attitudes in time when exposed to new ideas and data.
And BnW is hardly a bigot.He is holding people to account for their own rules and the ideas they hold on a "holier than thou" pedestal.Unlike some Christians who discriminate against gays he doesn't make a straw man and attack it based on his own ideas that nobody is allowed to challenge.

Atheism is a religion like OFF is a TV channel !!!

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22-03-2011, 03:40 PM (This post was last modified: 22-03-2011 03:51 PM by Ghost.)
RE: Megachurch wants choir to sign anti-gay covenant
Hey, GassyKitten.

No. No that is not me.

Hey, BnW.

Quote:We must always rememeber that this is not Christianity, but a sect of it.

That reads like a fairly definitive statement. As for you knowing ministers who don't fall into this thinking, on what basis do you say they are a majority?

Really? This is how you come at me for accusing you of talking out of your ass? Which you most certainly did. It is a definitive statement. Because the Crystal Church is affiliated with the Reform Church of America which has a grand total of 256 000 members in the US and Canada. So yeah, they're a sect. Not only that, but her little maneuver wasn't something that came from the Elders of the RCA, it was HER move.

Also, I never said that the ministers I knew that had no issues with homosexuals were the majority. I only know so many for one, and two, there is a difference between saying that I know ministers that have no issue with homosexuality and saying that they are the majority. I offered them up to support my statement that this woman was not all of Christianity. It doesn't matter if she represents 1% or 99% of Christians, she's not all. Don't come at me with this strawman crap.

As for your all or nothing thinking about religion, we call that sort of thing a congnitive distortion in psychology.

Quote:1.All-or-nothing thinking (splitting) – Thinking of things in absolute terms, like "always", "every", "never", and "there is no alternative". Few aspects of human behavior are so absolute. (See false dilemma.) All-or-nothing-thinking can contribute to depression. (See depression). Also called dichotomous thinking.

I know that you are smarter than you're portraying right now. Religion offers all sorts of middle grounds, it's you who are not.

Theologians the world over denounce conservative Christians for saying that the Bible is against homosexuality. Guess what they think of your sophomoric Theology? Yeah, some Christians believe that the Bible is against homosexuals. But some is not all. Full stop.

Here's where you're missing the point. You'll say, "no, not the people, the religion is fucked up, I'm not talking about people," but when a woman like this comes along, you'll say, "See! The religion is fucked up and it makes all of it's non-thinking zombies act in just the way it wants." So ultimately, you are talking about people because you've stripped these people of their individuality and lumped them into a category that YOU have set up. Not them, as you claim, you are the one that seems to think that Christians are either Biblical literalists or they're not Christians.

The idea that all Christian sects interpret the Bible the same way is so monumentally ludicrous that it can only be called a complete break from reality.

Quote:I'm equally not sure what I accused you of, unless "apologist" is an accusation.

You don't even get it.

Quote:As for the "attacking people" comment, you should really go back and check out your own writing style and how you approach people. Feel free to look at posts that don't involve me. As much as it pains me to say this, we're more alike than you wish to admit. The actual difference is I don't deny it, but you do.

Once again, you don't know who I am as a person. You never have and I doubt that you ever will. That's all the dignity I'll give this.

Quote:She is constantly supported. No one has to come out and overtly say "we're with you!" because there is no shortage of churches and religious people putting forth the same position she is every day.

That's demonstrably false. Name one other church that asked its choir to sign the "Crystal Cathedral Worship Choir and Worship Team Covenant".

And the idea that everyone blindly supports her is debunked IN THE ARTICLE:
Quote:Ann Moore Waltz, a longtime church member and former choir member, said she does not agree with the statement in the covenant.

"If I were still in the choir and if that was presented to me, and if a gay person had walked out, I would have walked out with him or her," she told the Register. "If you are a Christian group and people come to you, you should be a good servant, love them and shine the light of Jesus on them — regardless of who they are."

We disagree about Harris. Fine. But you say that a lack of condemnation is tantamount to support. But I say a lack of support is tantamount to condamnation.

Quote:Religion, however, is not the same as culture.

I know at least 2 PhDs, Richard Dawkins and Susan Blackmore, who would disagree.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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22-03-2011, 07:02 PM (This post was last modified: 22-03-2011 07:12 PM by BnW.)
RE: Megachurch wants choir to sign anti-gay covenant
Right, I'm full of shit. That's why gays have equal rights the world over, are free from persecution, are never discriminated against, and can consistently be open about their homosexuality without fear of losing their jobs or being harassed or discriminated against. They are never denied the opportunity to march in parades simply because they are gay and religious people far and wide welcome them to their flock and rip out the passages of the bible that clearly and unequivocally state that homosexuality is an abomination. That must be the real truth because I'm full of shit and just inventing arguments to back up my bigotry and hatred. That must be what it is.

Seriously, what fucking planet do you live on?

And this notion of theologians the world over denouncing the stance on gays is the biggest heap of bullshit I've ever seen anyone try to pass off. Because you can find a handful of people you think that qualifies as some kind of majority opinion? What I see happening the world over is discrimination, harassment, condemnation, and, in some cases, murder. The idea that this woman is somehow a lone voice in the wilderness is simply not based on reality. That there are some moral, decent people who are associated with these churches and disgusted by their actions does not lesson the horrific, hateful message that a large number of them are spewing to their parishioners.

Finally, this idea that religion can evolve and change with time and evolve as cultural mores change and evolve is a complete and total farce. We're not taking about man-made laws that evolve as we evolve. These are the inerrant words of god. Thou shalt have on other god before him and thou best not presume to second guess the almighty and the laws he laid down 5,000 years ago and then through his son 3,000 years later. The authority for Judaism is the Old Testament. You believe it, or you don't. The authority for Christianity is the New Testament. You believe it or you don't. The authority for Islam is the Q'uron. You believe it or you don't. These books are not subject to the whims of man over the passage of time. Man does not tell god how it is, god tells us. And, if you think that you can reinterpret and squeeze your beliefs into the modern world so that science does not contradict the biblical account of creation or change the meaning of texts to fit in with modern notions of morality that contradict the word of god, then you have driven off the road of adhering to your faith and you are now deep, deep in the valley of just making shit up.

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When ignorance reigns, life is lost
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22-03-2011, 07:23 PM
RE: Megachurch wants choir to sign anti-gay covenant
Hey.

As I said. All or nothing thinking.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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22-03-2011, 08:18 PM
RE: Megachurch wants choir to sign anti-gay covenant
Okay, allow be the first to invoke Godwin's law here. We're are 3 pages in, so I think it's ok.

Ghost, you're saying "the bible may say homosexuality is a sin, but not all Christians feel that way." Correct me if I'm wrong.

That's a false analogy. We aren't talking about every single individual Christian. We're attacking (or at least I am) the source material.

Invoking Godwin's law, that's like saying "Not all Nazi's hated Jews, so why are you bashing Nazis?"

It's the principle. Any Christian that doesn't hate homosexuals is expressly going against the Bible. Period. The rest here is window dressing. Unless you can cite passages in the bible that say homosexuality is okay, you really have no argument here.

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23-03-2011, 08:46 AM
RE: Megachurch wants choir to sign anti-gay covenant
(22-03-2011 07:23 PM)Ghost Wrote:  Hey.

As I said. All or nothing thinking.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt

And as I said: an apologist. I should throw in "enabler" too.

Shackle their minds when they're bent on the cross
When ignorance reigns, life is lost
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23-03-2011, 08:59 AM (This post was last modified: 23-03-2011 09:09 AM by Ghost.)
RE: Megachurch wants choir to sign anti-gay covenant
Hey, Condition Yellow.

That's a ridiculous analogy. That was a policy of the Nazi party. There was only one Nazi party.

The following churches have policies that accept homosexuals:

United Church of Canada
Christian Reformed Church in Europe
Evangelical Lutheran Church in America
Church of England
Some Mennonite Churches
Metropolitain Community Church
Moravian Church
Old Catholic Church
Uniting Church in Australia

And there are other churches with split policies, some that allow decisions to be made at the congregational level and some that embrace homosexual membership but not ordination or marriage.

So this idea that all Christians view the Bible as explicitly saying that homosexuality is sinful is pure bunk. The idea that you either believe it does or you're not a Christian is pure crap. It is utterly out of touch with the reality of the dynamic of Christian theology.

Does the anit-gay meme have a representation in the Christian memepool? Yes. No one is debating that. Is it a serious human rights issue? Yes. No one is debating that. Does it have 100% representation? Not even close. Has it's representation dropped in the last few decades? Demonstrably so. Are there entire Christian denominations advancing the gay rights issue? Yes. Why would you ignore that fact? Do some people cite the Bible as the source of anti-gay sentiment? Yes. Christians and Atheists alike. Do those passages in the Bible require all Christians everywhere to be anti-gay? No. Many denominations have actively denounced those interpretations and have adopted pro-gay policies.

Let's face facts. The idea that the Bible is the Bible and if you don't interpret it literally then you're not a Christian is an Atheist talking point meant to call out Christians on the darker parts of the Bible. "Well if you want me to believe in your book then you want me to be against gays, isn't it true, don't wait for the translation, answer me now!" It's a fine rhetorical tool, but it has absolutely nothing to do with Christian theology. If you want to use it as your basis for judging Christians, go right ahead. But other than it being a clever way to condemn Christians and an obtuse way to ignore the actual dynamics of theology present in Christianity that, horror of horrors, you might find yourself siding with and supporting and forstering, it is purile nonsense and intellectually corrupt.

So to get back to the point of all of this, does this woman represetn all of Christianity? No she does not. Is she someone that most of us here would oppose? Yes. Should she get bent? Several ways from Sunday. Should all of Christianity be condemned for her? Well I guess that depends. If you're the sort of person that believes that Muslims the world over should spend their time apoloigising for terrorism, then yeah, I guess so. By that rationale, Americans should spend their time apoligising for Coca Cola and American war crimes. But for myself, I would find ways to engage and work with those parts of Christinity that are pursuing the same goals that I am rather than just call them enemies to be destroyed. I'd also try to engage with this woman and her congregation to try to work on the matter. Because all condemnation does is make enemies. If people are truly interested in moving forward, we need communication, not war.

ON EDIT:

Hey, BnW.

Quote:And as I said: an apologist. I should throw in "enabler" too.

You forgot poopie head and bum bum face. Why are you so intent on acting like a 3-year-old? How is this sort of Fox News, say it enough times and people will believe you, nonsense supposed to help anything? I'm an enabler because I'm trying to build bridges between different groups instead of just sitting back and watching fear mongers like yourself create division? Because that's what you're doing. Your kill em all and let God sort them out rhetoric is tired. You just take all the Theists in the world, regardless of what they actually think and regardless of whether or not they can contribute to a better world, and cast them as enemies so that you and your little ego have something to hate. And then you spew nonsense and attack anyone who disagrees with you and cast them as just as bad as the painted enemy, so that others will fall in behind you and feed your hate. You're a small man. A pitiable man. A man of hatred and destruction. God help us all if you're ever actually given any real power.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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23-03-2011, 08:59 AM
RE: Megachurch wants choir to sign anti-gay covenant
(23-03-2011 08:46 AM)BnW Wrote:  
(22-03-2011 07:23 PM)Ghost Wrote:  Hey.

As I said. All or nothing thinking.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt

And as I said: an apologist. I should throw in "enabler" too.
Hey now guys...
What happened to the polite, reasonable and constructive discussing this forum is so proud of?

Observer

Agnostic atheist
Secular humanist
Emotional rationalist
Disclaimer: Don’t mix the personal opinion above with the absolute and objective truth. Remember to think for yourself. Thank you.
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23-03-2011, 10:17 AM
RE: Megachurch wants choir to sign anti-gay covenant
(23-03-2011 08:59 AM)Ghost Wrote:  Hey, Condition Yellow.

That's a ridiculous analogy. That was a policy of the Nazi party. There was only one Nazi party.

The following churches have policies that accept homosexuals:

No, it's pretty accurate. Because the Christian "policy" (as in, The Bible) is pretty anti-homosexual. Unless of course you provide a passage from the bible that says Homosexuality is okay. Still waiting on that.

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23-03-2011, 10:28 AM
 
RE: Megachurch wants choir to sign anti-gay covenant
Would Jesus Discriminate? <BTW, that's a link. Tongue
Smile
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