Megyn Kelly is moving from Fox to NBC
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16-01-2017, 06:30 PM (This post was last modified: 16-01-2017 06:34 PM by epronovost.)
RE: Megyn Kelly is moving from Fox to NBC
(15-01-2017 01:49 PM)Gilgamesh Wrote:  The reason why it's a meme is because it's not actually an argument.

Certainly it's rhetoric, yes. It's a villification tactic. It's telling those who dissent that they are villains for having their opinion, without actually arguing for it.

Most of the thing that falls under "It's insert year number for fuck sake." is usualy a self evident point that has been demonstrated and accepted years ago. If a person hold to vile and ridicule moral beliefs, he can expect to vilified and ridiculed. Its no very nice, but don't expect a stand-up comedian to be very tender with you when he roast your beliefs.

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16-01-2017, 08:35 PM
RE: Megyn Kelly is moving from Fox to NBC
(16-01-2017 06:30 PM)epronovost Wrote:  
(15-01-2017 01:49 PM)Gilgamesh Wrote:  The reason why it's a meme is because it's not actually an argument.

Certainly it's rhetoric, yes. It's a villification tactic. It's telling those who dissent that they are villains for having their opinion, without actually arguing for it.

Most of the thing that falls under "It's insert year number for fuck sake." is usualy a self evident point that has been demonstrated and accepted years ago. If a person hold to vile and ridicule moral beliefs, he can expect to vilified and ridiculed. Its no very nice, but don't expect a stand-up comedian to be very tender with you when he roast your beliefs.

Again.. Yes.. That's the point. When John "the cuck" Oliver says "CMON ITS -INSERT YEAR- I MEEN CMON GUYS" he's not actually providing a counter-argument to what he's responding to; he's just saying that the opinion is outdated and therefore if you have that opinion you're dumb.
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16-01-2017, 08:53 PM
RE: Megyn Kelly is moving from Fox to NBC
Because, as Epronovost and I keep trying to point out to you, it's a response to something that should by now be self-evident as a relic of the past, yet remains in certain circles, as in the examples I cited.

Your highly emotional reaction, using terms like "villify" and referring to John Oliver in terms that imply his wife is unfaithful, only makes you sound like some bitter old Klansman longing for the "good old days" when he could use the N-word freely and expect everyone to either agree with him or simply let it slide.

Today, if I heard a politician using the N-word, the way they commonly did in the early 60s, I might express my wonderment at such an occurrence by pointing out that it's not 1962 anymore...likely by using the phrase, "wow...it's 2017, right?"

I don't need to vilify the politician in question; he did it to himself. Everyone sees it except for people who still long for the "good old days" (for them) in which such suppressive behavior was acceptable in general society.

So again, when you react with bitterness and personal attacks for such a remark as "it's 2017!", it just makes you sound like Archie Bunker's even-more-bitter clone.

It's really sad.

If you want to make actual arguments, fine. You're a pretty smart kid. But when you resort to your standard modus operandum, all we are left with in response is pity and/or contempt.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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16-01-2017, 08:57 PM
RE: Megyn Kelly is moving from Fox to NBC
(16-01-2017 08:53 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  Today, if I heard a politician using the N-word, the way they commonly did in the early 60s, I might express my wonderment at such an occurrence by pointing out that it's not 1962 anymore...likely by using the phrase, "wow...it's 2017, right?"

Sure.

Quote:I don't need to vilify the politician in question; he did it to himself. Everyone sees it except for people who still long for the "good old days" (for them) in which such suppressive behavior was acceptable in general society.

Exactly. By saying "It's -insert year-" you're likening something to that which you just described; a guy longing for the old ways - ways that we all know now are bad and wrong now. Again, for the third time, that's what I'm saying..

Instead of making an argument, John "the cuck" Oliver is simply implying that that which he's responding do is wrong - but he's not making a case for why it's wrong.
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16-01-2017, 09:09 PM
RE: Megyn Kelly is moving from Fox to NBC
Because. He. Doesn't. Need. To.

That's what we mean by "self-evident", and is what Epronovost tried to explain to you.

It's evident to everyone not in the Klan that arguments for White Supremacy are bunkum. If someone today tried to revive such an argument, I don't need to walk that person through the history of the process by which even (most) Conservatives came to realize that all are entitled to equal dignity and rights under law. It's by now "self-evident" to all but said Klansmen.

When encountering such a person/opinion, all I'm left with is wondering what year it is.

If that person then wishes to make an argument for why the social changes that accompanied and followed the Civil Rights Era are not as we think they are, or not as good as we think they are ("we" being almost everyone in our society), then they can do so.

But calling names and whining about vilification, in lieu of such arguments, is simply pathetic. The onus is not on John Oliver to break down the entire history of "why it's no longer okay to just grab women by the pussy" or to refer to racial minorities with derogatory slurs; the onus is in the person who would excuse behaviors which have become reviled by the majority of the populace over time.

Making it emotional and personal does not help you establish what you need to establish in order to overcome that bar. Whining that we're not making arguments on seemingly settled issues definitely doesn't help.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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16-01-2017, 09:11 PM
RE: Megyn Kelly is moving from Fox to NBC
@Gilgamesh

Why are you trying to present something so tautological and defend it like if it's some clever insight? Of course it's not an argument, nobody said this specific sentence was an argument. It simply underlies a mountain of arguments and explanations. Where are you going with this?

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16-01-2017, 09:12 PM
RE: Megyn Kelly is moving from Fox to NBC
(15-01-2017 07:47 PM)Gilgamesh Wrote:  
(15-01-2017 04:19 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  I say all people are equal. So does almost everyone born after the Civil Rights Movement.

Me, too.

Quote:But White Supremacists say that we had it right back in the 1950s when all people weren't equal. If I meet someone who still says that whites are the superior race and I tell him, "um, dude it's 2017", I'm not vilifying him. I'm reminding him that it hasn't been remotely okay to hold that viewpoint since before we were born, and he should probably take a good hard look at why he still thinks the view from our grandparents' generation is still okay to voice in public.

>not vilifying him
>telling him he's not okay.

You're a fucking dumbass that just can't admit when he's wrong.



Quote:But really, what the "it's 2017, people!" is used to express is outrage that things we thought were relics of the past, such as cross-burning in yards, or telling women that they should stay in the kitchen, is still going on.

Um, I fucking know that, stupid fuck. Yes, you're drawing a parallel between someone you're arguing with present day and outdated beliefs of back-in-the day... in order to vilify him/her. That's exactly what I'm saying, stupid fuck.

God-fucking-damn you are a stupid fuck.

It's funny how you get so angry over a simple different view. Do you always allow people to steer you emotionally? Is it really this easy to get you sputtering?

That's some sad shit right there. Why don't you go out and get some fresh air, take a walk in a park, make a friend or something?
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16-01-2017, 09:19 PM
RE: Megyn Kelly is moving from Fox to NBC
(16-01-2017 09:09 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  But calling names and whining about vilification, in lieu of such arguments, is simply pathetic. The onus is not on John Oliver to break down the entire history of "why it's no longer okay to just grab women by the pussy" or to refer to racial minorities with derogatory slurs; the onus is in the person who would excuse behaviors which have become reviled by the majority of the populace over time.

The onus is on anyone who makes a positive claim. If John "the cuck" oliver says something is morally wrong, and then refuses to substantiate that claim; but rather just says "CMON ITS -INSERT YEAR-" the onus has not been relieved and therefore is still on him.
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16-01-2017, 09:22 PM
RE: Megyn Kelly is moving from Fox to NBC
(16-01-2017 09:09 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  Because. He. Doesn't. Need. To.

That's what we mean by "self-evident", and is what Epronovost tried to explain to you.

It's evident to everyone not in the Klan that arguments for White Supremacy are bunkum. If someone today tried to revive such an argument, I don't need to walk that person through the history of the process by which even (most) Conservatives came to realize that all are entitled to equal dignity and rights under law. It's by now "self-evident" to all but said Klansmen.

When encountering such a person/opinion, all I'm left with is wondering what year it is.

If that person then wishes to make an argument for why the social changes that accompanied and followed the Civil Rights Era are not as we think they are, or not as good as we think they are ("we" being almost everyone in our society), then they can do so.

But calling names and whining about vilification, in lieu of such arguments, is simply pathetic. The onus is not on John Oliver to break down the entire history of "why it's no longer okay to just grab women by the pussy" or to refer to racial minorities with derogatory slurs; the onus is in the person who would excuse behaviors which have become reviled by the majority of the populace over time.

Making it emotional and personal does not help you establish what you need to establish in order to overcome that bar. Whining that we're not making arguments on seemingly settled issues definitely doesn't help.

Anyway, RS, are you pro abortion? You are? CMON WTF IT'S 2017 I MEEN CMON.

No, I don't need to argue for it. It's just common knowledge that abortion is wrong. If I imply something is common knowledge then I have relieved myself of the onus. /s

I hope you get it now, RS.
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16-01-2017, 09:30 PM
RE: Megyn Kelly is moving from Fox to NBC
I'm curious to hear an example of a positive claim he has made via that phrase.

Every time I've heard him use it, it has been in a "self-evident" scenario such as I described, on a topic most people consider to have been settled.

"C'mon it's current year!" isn't a positive claim, it's an expression of outrage that issues thought to have been long settled under the debates of generations past manage to keep popping up.

Again and for the last time: I don't need to re-establish "why it's no longer okay for an elected official to use racial slurs", because we basically settled that issue in 1964-65. Some people simply took longer to catch up... In which case we might remind them that it's Current Year and not 1965, that it hasn't been 1965 for long enough that even the most recalcitrant to catch up to the social changes and make peace with having to let go of the notion of racial superiority.

If someone simply cannot do so, it is not necessary to vilify them. They do it to themselves. I need only make a snarky comment plhighlighting what has already been established, and scoff when Archie Bunker demands I make a fresh argument for why he's wrong.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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