Men not wanting to get married.
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14-02-2016, 11:15 AM
RE: Men not wanting to get married.
(14-02-2016 10:45 AM)Metazoa Zeke Wrote:  
(14-02-2016 10:28 AM)jennybee Wrote:  I think it depends on how you look at things. Men used to get a better benefit in marriage than women, imo. Not to put down homemakers, because that is a tough job--and if women *choose* that for themselves, then more power to them. It used to be that the man was the head of the household--which means they made all or most of the financial decisions and were able to go out into the world and have a career of their choosing. Women, had no choice, they *had* to stay at home and take care of the children, not have a career, and they had to cook and clean for the man, all while being (in many cases) subservient to him.

Two things.

A. bolded the past tense as to show that just because it is in the past, and those factors have very little with how marriage works today.

B. Keep in mind being subservient was not in the way we think. It was a trade off. She took care of him, he gave her money and things she needs. It was a 50/50 trade off.

I was just pointing out that marriage did not *always* benefit women. And if you were in the same sect of Christianity that I was in--the Proverbs woman that was pushed by my faith--then your role was to be subservient to your husband. Sadly, in many religions and cultures (including some in the U.S.)--women are still taught to be subservient to the man in marriage and in life.

It wasn't as much of a trade off as you think. If women were happy about it, they would have stayed in the kitchen and not had an explosion into the business world and into positions of power as they have been doing as soon as the cage door was busted wide open.
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14-02-2016, 11:35 AM
RE: Men not wanting to get married.
I think men not wanting to get married is great. Women don't want to as much either. I like the option of that even better.

What they lose is the right to breed or have sex with any other willing females (unless they negotiate an open marriage). They never lost friends or freedoms, that happened I'm sure individually, if they married someone who would control that but that's on them for marring someone like that. It did not happen as a course of marriage or to the group of husbands as a whole.

Marriage was and still is the benefit of men:
They have a female they can have sex with and until recently (historically speaking) she couldn't refuse him.
They had a caregiver/servant for themselves, their children, their family members (aging parents). (This is still the majority of marital relationships, wife as caregiver.)
They had only one breeding female to protect and be able to protect his own offspring. The breeding instinct to choose a single mate is to control and protect your own genetic bloodline.
They had all the say in the design, organization (financial or otherwise) and future of his family. (again, until recently)
They got all the benefits of divorce as well, freedom, sex with others (men were expected to run around and fuck everything after divorce but women were still expected to get married again before having sex), owned his children/saw them whenever he wanted but didn't have to be burdened by the care and many times was allowed to abandon his children without financial or social repercussions (this is still true in many cases), had most of the property, most of the money, and most the power from the courts. Where men lost out was that the courts expected men to still provide for his children. What men didn't like was that when ex collected child support or even alimony, he no longer had a say in how she spent it. Sour grapes.

Until very recently, when a couple divorced the average was that his income stayed the same and her depleted by 75% (usually the 25% was the child support and possibly alimony if she got that, because she still had little or no income from work) with her still having to give all/most the care for the children. Most women in divorce became impoverished do to her supporter having all the education, work experience and financial control. Housewives do not earn money or benefits or retirement. Until women started working while they also still carried the majority of the home responsibilities (that's 2 jobs to his 1) they were not the ones to benefit by divorce. They still aren't the majority of times, though it has evened out more in the last 20yrs mostly because the woman works to provide her own benefit.

Now, here is what men are finding:
Women who don't want to be married as much anymore. They are not as willing to be both provider and caregiver in a family where the benefit go to the man and the work to the woman. Traditional marriage is changing in many ways.

Women want to have a say over their own lives, their children and their futures. If women are going to work and support their own children then what is the benefit of marriage for women? This is the complaint of many men in the MRA groups. Asshole husbands do not have to be tolerated anymore because women can support themselves. This hasn't always been the case. This is a huge reason why some men (mostly assholes) complain about feminism, they no longer have a hold over women to accept them for the assholes they are if they want to have a family.

A family can be designed anyway a person, man or woman wants. I like that a lot. Gives both sides of the relationship equal footing.

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14-02-2016, 11:43 AM
RE: Men not wanting to get married.
(14-02-2016 11:10 AM)Escape Artist Wrote:  I also realize that I haven't really answered the question of why men don't want to get married, lol. I assume the reasons might be the same?

Yes infact. Got my respects EA, you are playing smart. Also if needed tell your kids marriage was never christian anyway, because the ceremony is pegan.

(14-02-2016 11:15 AM)jennybee Wrote:  I was just pointing out that marriage did not *always* benefit women. And if you were in the same sect of Christianity that I was in--the Proverbs woman that was pushed by my faith--then your role was to be subservient to your husband. Sadly, in many religions and cultures (including some in the U.S.)--women are still taught to be subservient to the man in marriage and in life.

I was taught that a female should be subservient, but a man should do everything for her as well, at least in the Hebrew Israelite ideology. I mean to add I don't think we should teach women to be subservient to men, but also not to expect men to give everything to you.

(14-02-2016 11:15 AM)jennybee Wrote:  It wasn't as much of a trade off as you think. If women were happy about it, they would have stayed in the kitchen and not had an explosion into the business world and into positions of power as they have been doing as soon as the cage door was busted wide open.

Funny you bring up happiness. Now women should have freedom like men do, that is the egalitarian way.

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14-02-2016, 12:04 PM
RE: Men not wanting to get married.
(14-02-2016 10:18 AM)Metazoa Zeke Wrote:  There is a saying about marriage "There is her money, and then there is our money." This applies to most marriages whether or not it is a male that is the bread winner or the female.
This makes no sense. Perhaps laws in your country are different to mine.
Our law is based on what is termed as "relationship property". It doesn't take into account the gender of the person.
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14-02-2016, 12:11 PM
RE: Men not wanting to get married.
As someone who had a kid with someone who shes not married to I protest.
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14-02-2016, 12:23 PM
RE: Men not wanting to get married.
(14-02-2016 11:35 AM)Heatheness Wrote:  What they lose is the right to breed or have sex with any other willing females (unless they negotiate an open marriage). They never lost friends or freedoms, that happened I'm sure individually, if they married someone who would control that but that's on them for marring someone like that. It did not happen as a course of marriage or to the group of husbands as a whole.

Well he can't do as he will. He has to limit what he does around the house, even how often he gets to spend time with his friends. Hell if he has female friends, even if she is a lesbian, the wife will likely say no. Now to say that is for all marriages would in fact be wrong, but too many do go that way.

(14-02-2016 11:35 AM)Heatheness Wrote:  Marriage was and still is the benefit of men:
They have a female they can have sex with and until recently (historically speaking) she couldn't refuse him.
They had a caregiver/servant for themselves, their children, their family members (aging parents). (This is still the majority of marital relationships, wife as caregiver.)
They had only one breeding female to protect and be able to protect his own offspring. The breeding instinct to choose a single mate is to control and protect your own genetic bloodline.
They had all the say in the design, organization (financial or otherwise) and future of his family. (again, until recently)

A. the past is not how it is done now

B. Cohabitants bro Cool

(14-02-2016 11:35 AM)Heatheness Wrote:  Now, here is what men are finding:
Women who don't want to be married as much anymore. They are not as willing to be both provider and caregiver in a family where the benefit go to the man and the work to the woman.

Never read anything about men not wanting to get married because women don't want to. Maybe I have not dug deep enough. Many don't because as I said for the reasons above. And most of the reasons for marriage benefiting women came from the mouth of married men. Now I won't link the source, because it is a MGTOW source and if you are like me you try your best not to go on that website. So if you want to see just tell me.

(14-02-2016 11:35 AM)Heatheness Wrote:  Women want to have a say over their own lives, their children and their futures. If women are going to work and support their own children then what is the benefit of marriage for women? This is the complaint of many men in the MRA groups.

Now I am not an MRA, but most of the time I hear them talk about male suicides, male homelessness, how in india you can not rape a man, the unfair treatment of men in divorce today, and how boys are being drugged with ritalin for being boys. You know not once have I heard them talk about women wanting to work to be a problem. Maybe if you said MGTOW I could understand, but MRAs, I think that might be a strawman.

(14-02-2016 11:35 AM)Heatheness Wrote:  Asshole husbands do not have to be tolerated anymore because women can support themselves. This hasn't always been the case. This is a huge reason why some men (mostly assholes) complain about feminism, they no longer have a hold over women to accept them for the assholes they are if they want to have a family.

Well I did mention that I was an asshole earlier, so on that you might be right. Now I have heard many people complain about 3rd wave feminism, I included, Many of them support women in the work place, and taking on roles men have. Never real heard many men talk about how they hate it for not having a hold on femenism, but they are usually like pat roberson.

(14-02-2016 11:35 AM)Heatheness Wrote:  A family can be designed anyway a person, man or woman wants. I like that a lot. Gives both sides of the relationship equal footing.

Equality is a amazing thing Thumbsup

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14-02-2016, 12:27 PM
RE: Men not wanting to get married.
(14-02-2016 12:04 PM)Stevil Wrote:  This makes no sense. Perhaps laws in your country are different to mine.
Our law is based on what is termed as "relationship property". It doesn't take into account the gender of the person.

Most countries I have read about work that way. But yet some countries are higher on the equality scale then others.

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14-02-2016, 12:41 PM
RE: Men not wanting to get married.
<singing>

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I might come around and visit, don't you lock me inside ...
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14-02-2016, 12:50 PM
RE: Men not wanting to get married.
(14-02-2016 12:23 PM)Metazoa Zeke Wrote:  
(14-02-2016 11:35 AM)Heatheness Wrote:  What they lose is the right to breed or have sex with any other willing females (unless they negotiate an open marriage). They never lost friends or freedoms, that happened I'm sure individually, if they married someone who would control that but that's on them for marring someone like that. It did not happen as a course of marriage or to the group of husbands as a whole.

Well he can't do as he will. He has to limit what he does around the house, even how often he gets to spend time with his friends. Hell if he has female friends, even if she is a lesbian, the wife will likely say no. Now to say that is for all marriages would in fact be wrong, but too many do go that way.

(14-02-2016 11:35 AM)Heatheness Wrote:  Marriage was and still is the benefit of men:
They have a female they can have sex with and until recently (historically speaking) she couldn't refuse him.
They had a caregiver/servant for themselves, their children, their family members (aging parents). (This is still the majority of marital relationships, wife as caregiver.)
They had only one breeding female to protect and be able to protect his own offspring. The breeding instinct to choose a single mate is to control and protect your own genetic bloodline.
They had all the say in the design, organization (financial or otherwise) and future of his family. (again, until recently)

A. the past is not how it is done now

B. Cohabitants bro Cool

(14-02-2016 11:35 AM)Heatheness Wrote:  Now, here is what men are finding:
Women who don't want to be married as much anymore. They are not as willing to be both provider and caregiver in a family where the benefit go to the man and the work to the woman.

Never read anything about men not wanting to get married because women don't want to. Maybe I have not dug deep enough. Many don't because as I said for the reasons above. And most of the reasons for marriage benefiting women came from the mouth of married men. Now I won't link the source, because it is a MGTOW source and if you are like me you try your best not to go on that website. So if you want to see just tell me.

(14-02-2016 11:35 AM)Heatheness Wrote:  Women want to have a say over their own lives, their children and their futures. If women are going to work and support their own children then what is the benefit of marriage for women? This is the complaint of many men in the MRA groups.

Now I am not an MRA, but most of the time I hear them talk about male suicides, male homelessness, how in india you can not rape a man, the unfair treatment of men in divorce today, and how boys are being drugged with ritalin for being boys. You know not once have I heard them talk about women wanting to work to be a problem. Maybe if you said MGTOW I could understand, but MRAs, I think that might be a strawman.

(14-02-2016 11:35 AM)Heatheness Wrote:  Asshole husbands do not have to be tolerated anymore because women can support themselves. This hasn't always been the case. This is a huge reason why some men (mostly assholes) complain about feminism, they no longer have a hold over women to accept them for the assholes they are if they want to have a family.

Well I did mention that I was an asshole earlier, so on that you might be right. Now I have heard many people complain about 3rd wave feminism, I included, Many of them support women in the work place, and taking on roles men have. Never real heard many men talk about how they hate it for not having a hold on femenism, but they are usually like pat roberson.

(14-02-2016 11:35 AM)Heatheness Wrote:  A family can be designed anyway a person, man or woman wants. I like that a lot. Gives both sides of the relationship equal footing.

Equality is a amazing thing Thumbsup

"A. the past is not how it is done now"

Sure it is. Have you noticed how many xtians and fundy xtians we have here in America. Not even addressing the Muslims, Protestants and Catholics. That is still how the majority of them do that.

There is progress and things are changing but in the majority of marriages women still do not have equal power whether it's financial or emotional/psychological the men still have it in the control department.

OT - This is also what draws a lot of women to church. Support for them and their children. It can be a huge issue to raise kids on your own. When there is support, your chances of your children growing up as self-supporting contributors of the society verses them getting into bad crowds, low school progress, drugs/alcohol, teen pregnancy. Sometimes you have to do what you can with what you have. Many women choose church when they have nothing or no one else.

If our government and social structure supported families better without the religious attachment religion would drop like a rock.

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14-02-2016, 12:56 PM
RE: Men not wanting to get married.
(14-02-2016 12:50 PM)Heatheness Wrote:  "A. the past is not how it is done now"

Sure it is. Have you noticed how many xtians and fundy xtians we have here in America. Not even addressing the Muslims, Protestants and Catholics. That is still how the majority of them do that.

There is progress and things are changing but in the majority of marriages women still do not have equal power whether it's financial or emotional/psychological the men still have it in the control department.

Yet there are shelters and everything for women who do have problems. Also I will need a source that shows this is true, because I have a hard time believing that men still have control in marriage.

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