Messiah, son of David
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29-02-2016, 09:32 PM
RE: Messiah, son of David
(29-02-2016 10:54 AM)Aliza Wrote:  
(29-02-2016 10:27 AM)morondog Wrote:  Um... Alize but you guys must have noticed by now that a king descended from David is not currently ruling you? Right? Doesn't that kinda pour a bit of cold water on the whole 'eternal royal line' promise?

But we do have the Davidic line. I can point to people today who have family traditions that place them in the House of David. We accept these claims as valid until they prove otherwise. We also understand that there are going to be tons of people who are Davidic who don’t even know it.

The Hebrew bible was written as an internal document, intended for a Jewish audience. There are some cultural and religious expectations that the writers assume that readers have.

We haven’t had a sitting Davidic King for 2,500 years, and at no time did the Jews say, “Hey wait a minute….” The promise isn’t that there will be a sitting king on the throne at any given time. It’s that the line will exist and that any valid, sitting king will be Davidic. A preexisting warning in the Torah says that we could be exiled from the land, so we can’t have a sitting king when we’re in exile. Even when the Davidic promise was made, it was understood that we may not always have control over the land.

Hehehe Smile I shoulda known you guys woulda had an answer for something so obvious...

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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29-02-2016, 10:05 PM
RE: Messiah, son of David
(29-02-2016 07:52 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(29-02-2016 07:48 PM)Aliza Wrote:  I accept an unsupported assertion because I trust my heritage and traditions.

That is faith, not reason.

Okay.

(29-02-2016 07:52 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(29-02-2016 07:48 PM)Aliza Wrote:  Also, I know that no one stands to gain anything from being Davidic, so what's the motive for someone to fabricate their history?

Pride?

If they were looking for pride, they'd have fabricated themselves to be Kohain. Or Levite, even. -Or a descendant of Rashi, or the Ramban, or the Chofetz Chaim.

Davidic? Why? No one cares about that, and to make it meaningful, you'd have to literally revolutionize the world.

(29-02-2016 07:52 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(29-02-2016 07:48 PM)Aliza Wrote:  The people that I know personally are meticulous about maintaining family lines and upholding traditions to a point of neuroticism. They learned that behavior from somewhere. I simply have confidence in my heritage. That's enough for me.

Your confidence is unsupported by anything other than wishful thinking.

Okay. Here's the thing. It doesn't matter what I believe. IT DOESN'T MATTER! And it doesn't matter what you believe.

If the Messiah is to be, then he will be. If he's not to be, then he won't be. Our faith or belief (Or lack thereof) will not impact anything.

(29-02-2016 07:52 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(29-02-2016 07:48 PM)Aliza Wrote:  I understand and fully respect that that's not enough for you.

No, it isn't.

You sound like you're happier not believing. I accept this. It's okay.

You know what? The world will keep turning if you don't think the same thoughts that I do. In fact, the world is better with a variety of different voices, ideas and opinions contributing to the fabric of humanity. If there was one thing I wish I could change about Christian culture, it's this urge to compel people to think the same thoughts as you.
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29-02-2016, 10:12 PM
RE: Messiah, son of David
(29-02-2016 01:29 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Did I miss something ?
Is Israel planning on installing a monarchy, and dumping democracy, (again) ?

Actually the change from the Tribal Confederation model, to demanding a king, is considered by some scholars to be the point where ancient Israel loses it's unique identity. The Prophet Amos certainly thought so : Amos 5:2 "Fallen is the virgin Israel, never to rise again, deserted in her own land, with no one to lift her up."

I had to Google this to be absolutely certain, but Great Britain is a monarchy and democracy. I know there are other examples throughout the world, but I think my point is well made with just the one.
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29-02-2016, 10:18 PM
RE: Messiah, son of David
Quote:The reason why it is so important for the messiah to be from the line of David is because of the Davidic covenant. Essentially God comes to David and promises that Davids royal dynasty will never end.

But it did. Another one of god's little fuck-ups.

Atheism is NOT a Religion. It's A Personal Relationship With Reality!
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29-02-2016, 10:49 PM (This post was last modified: 01-03-2016 07:37 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Messiah, son of David
(29-02-2016 10:12 PM)Aliza Wrote:  
(29-02-2016 01:29 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Did I miss something ?
Is Israel planning on installing a monarchy, and dumping democracy, (again) ?

Actually the change from the Tribal Confederation model, to demanding a king, is considered by some scholars to be the point where ancient Israel loses it's unique identity. The Prophet Amos certainly thought so : Amos 5:2 "Fallen is the virgin Israel, never to rise again, deserted in her own land, with no one to lift her up."

I had to Google this to be absolutely certain, but Great Britain is a monarchy and democracy. I know there are other examples throughout the world, but I think my point is well made with just the one.

The Kingdom of David was not a constitutional monarchy. Trying to conflate modern constitutional monarchies with the ancient kingdoms, where a ruler had absolute power, is invalid and preposterous. There is NO kingdom envisaged in the state of Israel, now, at any time. Kingdoms are a thing of the past. Human culture has advanced.

"The United Monarchy is the name given to the Israelite kingdom of Israel and Judah, during the reigns of Saul, David and Solomon, as depicted in the Hebrew Bible. This is traditionally dated between 1050 and 930 BCE. On the succession of Solomon's son, Rehoboam, in c. 930 BCE the biblical account reports that the country split into two kingdoms; the Kingdom of Israel (including the cities of Shechem and Samaria) in the north and the Kingdom of Judah (containing Jerusalem) in the south.

Modern scholarship has challenged the biblical account using both literary and archaeological evidence, leading to questions about the historicity of some or all of the account, including the very existence of a united kingdom. " Wiki https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of..._monarchy)
If there ever was a united kingdom, it would have been for a VERY short time. For most of it's ancient history, (pre-exile) there were two kingdoms. Post exile, it was a client state of foreign rulers.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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29-02-2016, 10:57 PM
RE: Messiah, son of David
(29-02-2016 10:49 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(29-02-2016 10:12 PM)Aliza Wrote:  I had to Google this to be absolutely certain, but Great Britain is a monarchy and democracy. I know there are other examples throughout the world, but I think my point is well made with just the one.

The Kingdom of David was not a constitutional monarchy. Trying to conflate modern constitutional monarchies with the ancient kingdoms, where a ruler had absolute power, is invalid and preposterous. There is NO kingdom envisaged in the state of Israel, now, at any time. Kingdoms are a think of the past. Human culture has advanced.

"The United Monarchy is the name given to the Israelite kingdom of Israel and Judah, during the reigns of Saul, David and Solomon, as depicted in the Hebrew Bible. This is traditionally dated between 1050 and 930 BCE. On the succession of Solomon's son, Rehoboam, in c. 930 BCE the biblical account reports that the country split into two kingdoms; the Kingdom of Israel (including the cities of Shechem and Samaria) in the north and the Kingdom of Judah (containing Jerusalem) in the south.

Modern scholarship has challenged the biblical account using both literary and archaeological evidence, leading to questions about the historicity of some or all of the account, including the very existence of a united kingdom. " Wiki https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of..._monarchy)
If there ever was a united kingdom, it would have been for a VERY short time. For most of it's ancient history, (pre-exile) there were two kingdoms. Post exile, it was a client state of foreign rulers.

Actually, I just meant that establishing a Davidic king in modern times doesn't inherently demand that democracy is thrown out.

The king could just be the ruler of Judaic law. There's no set mandatory practice that I'm aware of that we're required to follow. Maybe I misunderstood your original statement.
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01-03-2016, 12:00 AM
RE: Messiah, son of David
(29-02-2016 10:57 PM)Aliza Wrote:  
(29-02-2016 10:49 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  The Kingdom of David was not a constitutional monarchy. Trying to conflate modern constitutional monarchies with the ancient kingdoms, where a ruler had absolute power, is invalid and preposterous. There is NO kingdom envisaged in the state of Israel, now, at any time. Kingdoms are a think of the past. Human culture has advanced.

"The United Monarchy is the name given to the Israelite kingdom of Israel and Judah, during the reigns of Saul, David and Solomon, as depicted in the Hebrew Bible. This is traditionally dated between 1050 and 930 BCE. On the succession of Solomon's son, Rehoboam, in c. 930 BCE the biblical account reports that the country split into two kingdoms; the Kingdom of Israel (including the cities of Shechem and Samaria) in the north and the Kingdom of Judah (containing Jerusalem) in the south.

Modern scholarship has challenged the biblical account using both literary and archaeological evidence, leading to questions about the historicity of some or all of the account, including the very existence of a united kingdom. " Wiki https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of..._monarchy)
If there ever was a united kingdom, it would have been for a VERY short time. For most of it's ancient history, (pre-exile) there were two kingdoms. Post exile, it was a client state of foreign rulers.

Actually, I just meant that establishing a Davidic king in modern times doesn't inherently demand that democracy is thrown out.

The king could just be the ruler of Judaic law. There's no set mandatory practice that I'm aware of that we're required to follow. Maybe I misunderstood your original statement.

If someone came out of the woodwork with all the bells and whistles attached, would you believe them that they were a bona fide David descendant, and would you accept them as your rightful ruler, spiritual or otherwise? And... what would that mean?

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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01-03-2016, 09:08 AM
RE: Messiah, son of David
(29-02-2016 10:05 PM)Aliza Wrote:  You sound like you're happier not believing. I accept this. It's okay.

No, I am happier thinking rationally.

Quote:You know what? The world will keep turning if you don't think the same thoughts that I do. In fact, the world is better with a variety of different voices, ideas and opinions contributing to the fabric of humanity. If there was one thing I wish I could change about Christian culture, it's this urge to compel people to think the same thoughts as you.

Not the point. If that's all you got out of that then that is sad.

It is about critical thinking. We are all better for it.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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01-03-2016, 09:31 AM
RE: Messiah, son of David
(01-03-2016 12:00 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(29-02-2016 10:57 PM)Aliza Wrote:  Actually, I just meant that establishing a Davidic king in modern times doesn't inherently demand that democracy is thrown out.

The king could just be the ruler of Judaic law. There's no set mandatory practice that I'm aware of that we're required to follow. Maybe I misunderstood your original statement.

If someone came out of the woodwork with all the bells and whistles attached, would you believe them that they were a bona fide David descendant, and would you accept them as your rightful ruler, spiritual or otherwise? And... what would that mean?

I guess that depends. Has the person in question fulfilled every one of the tasks to be considered the Jewish messiah?

Has worldwide peace been established? Have all weapons been dismantled and turned into farming equipment? Is there a third Temple? Are at least the majority of Jews living in Israel? Does everyone on earth recognize that there is a G-d?

If so, the genetic link to the Davidic line would be assumed. If we're wrong, then G-d can sort it out. It's not like we'll worship the guy or something. He's just someone we show respect to in much the same way as you might show your respect to the Queen of England.

What does that mean for you? Absolutely nothing. You'd continue to live your life as you currently do, only in a nicer environment.
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01-03-2016, 10:24 AM
RE: Messiah, son of David
(01-03-2016 09:31 AM)Aliza Wrote:  
(01-03-2016 12:00 AM)morondog Wrote:  If someone came out of the woodwork with all the bells and whistles attached, would you believe them that they were a bona fide David descendant, and would you accept them as your rightful ruler, spiritual or otherwise? And... what would that mean?

I guess that depends. Has the person in question fulfilled every one of the tasks to be considered the Jewish messiah?

Has worldwide peace been established? Have all weapons been dismantled and turned into farming equipment? Is there a third Temple? Are at least the majority of Jews living in Israel? Does everyone on earth recognize that there is a G-d?

If so, the genetic link to the Davidic line would be assumed. If we're wrong, then G-d can sort it out. It's not like we'll worship the guy or something. He's just someone we show respect to in much the same way as you might show your respect to the Queen of England.

What does that mean for you? Absolutely nothing. You'd continue to live your life as you currently do, only in a nicer environment.

I won't pretend to understand what the Messianic Era means to the Jewish people. But, the website Chabad.org has a basic explanation of the two stages of the Messianic Era. The second and final stage is described as follows:

The Resurrection of the Dead – an era that will last for all eternity – is the second and final stage of the Messianic Era. It will happen forty years after the advent of the Messianic Era ...

Every Jewish soul that ever lived will be resurrected—in the very body in which it lived and died (and in the case of reincarnated souls, all the bodies will be resurrected). The body and soul are partners in all good deeds performed; they must both be rewarded accordingly ...

The Resurrection Era will be a period that will be characterized by radical changes in nature, with miracles becoming the daily norm ... We will then be treated to a reward that can only be viewed as a gift from Above, for its greatness is such that finite human efforts could never earn such bounty. ...


The ellipses above are omissions of links to other pages of the Chabad.org website.

http://www.chabad.org/library/moshiach/a...Basics.htm

The description has a few elements of the 2nd coming of Christ. But, note, only JEWISH souls are resurrected. So I was right. God does play favorites! Laugh out load

"Why hast thou forsaken me, o deity whose existence I doubt..." - Dr. Sheldon Cooper
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