Might have bitten off more than I can chew here...
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28-04-2011, 08:52 AM
Might have bitten off more than I can chew here...
I wanted a challenge, so I decided to join the website Evolution is a Fairytale. My first exchange with a creationist went surprisingly well. I explained to him how communities could evolve and it ended on a note of him accepting that they could(not did, but could).

But then, this guy showed up.

Ron Wrote:
ashleyhunt60 Wrote:
Ron Wrote:This seems to be a subjective opinion attempting to be objective. So, coming from an atheistic standpoint, what does it really matter if an evolutionist is good or bad as long as the stronger traits are passed on, and the weaker stifled?
Again, what does it matter to the materialist atheist? As long as the strongest weeds out the weakest, what does it matter if a weaker human life devalued?
I don't use the ToE as a base for my morality.
I at no time asserted that you use evolution as a base for your morality. Please re-read the questions.
I said “So, coming from an atheistic standpoint, what does it really matter if an evolutionist is good or bad as long as the stronger traits are passed on, and the weaker stifled?”
And “Again, what does it matter to the materialist atheist? As long as the strongest weeds out the weakest, what does it matter if a weaker human life devalued?”.

I’ll assume, at this point, you misread my post…

[In a later post, after I explained what I use for my morality]
Once again: To the materialist atheist WHY? If the human is nothing more than “matter in motion”, if one bag of biological mass asserts its strength and superior survival skills over that of a weaker bag of biological mass, why does it matter to a materialist atheist if they kill, lie, or cheat? And, obviously (from a materialistic standpoint), if one bag of biological mass “over comes by any means” a weaker bag of biological mass, then they weren’t equal.

I could go into the mechanics of origins for “morality” and “equality” from the “materialistic atheist”, but I think the above questions are sufficient.
(Link to specific post)
And this guy is an Admin. And he has no qualms about opening up your account and messing around with your status and stated beliefs. Ironic that we are debating about morality and he's insisting that I'm the immoral one.

There's a few other people around defend evolution, but I believe I'm the only(*GASP*) atheist. They're not a fan. So, face palm, laugh, add some helpful suggestions as to how to politely tell this guy to screw off(I'm not interested in talking to anybody that insists I'm a fan of eugenics), or if your a brave soul join and help me out in fighting off the swarms of YEC. And again, there are creationist on there that I enjoy talking to.

I don't believe Jesus is the son of God until I see the long form birth certificate!
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28-04-2011, 11:22 AM (This post was last modified: 28-04-2011 11:25 AM by Observer.)
RE: Might have bitten off more than I can chew here...
I think you made a perfectly understandable mistake here.
I think that in your "being young and kind" situation you stepped into the trap of thinking that all people are equal.
It's cruel...
We aren't!
Some of us are small, some big, some smart, some dumb, some have a strong moral compass, some almost none, strong, weak, etc... etc...

Morals come from the fact that your survival skills in the wild greatly enhance when you are part from a group. In that way morals evolved. Inside that group a moral system can cope with the differences in a group.

Look at dogs... they have a rudimentary moral code as well... ants too...

When thinking of morals as an evolutionary concept you, have to accept that morals are there to make sure you evolve as a group, not as an individual.

Observer

Agnostic atheist
Secular humanist
Emotional rationalist
Disclaimer: Don’t mix the personal opinion above with the absolute and objective truth. Remember to think for yourself. Thank you.
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28-04-2011, 11:36 AM
 
RE: Might have bitten off more than I can chew here...
I don't think you made a mistake. And I don't think you should beat yourself up over this. You have something those at that forum don't. Expectation of a reasonable, rational dialog among fellow opinionated human beings.

The title of the forum itself forewarns everyone that the deck is stacked against such innocence as that what you brought to the table.

When someone takes the time to create a forum dedicated to making the statement that Evolution is a fairytale, you know that you're going to be walking into a biased, ignorant, monocerebral <yes mom, it's a word now!Tongue hornets nest.

Trolls intent on flame baiting those who accept evolution as fact and think they can educate ignorance, are what the creator(s) of that site feed on.

Break it down to it's most basic points and you'll maybe come to see how lucky you are to know you don't have to prove anything, to anyone there who are already dead set in their ways.
Reality. God did not create anything.
Reality. Evolution is change and adaptation for survival of the fittest.
Reality. Many Theists will never accept that. Because they first believe their soul depends on refusing to accept logic, reason and rationality.

Instead of beating yourself up over this, consider how fortunate you are to have learned a great deal about what faith can devolve a person's intellect into. Wink
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28-04-2011, 11:57 AM
RE: Might have bitten off more than I can chew here...
I've been thinking further on my previous post.

I think you mixed up cause and effect. Because of morals, we consider ourself equal. We don't have morals because we are equal.

I would not leave the forum but I would respond that I made a mistake in reasoning, explain what I found out and thank the forum members for making me a better and smarter human. (mwhahah... I guess that would totally confuse them Big Grin)

Observer

Agnostic atheist
Secular humanist
Emotional rationalist
Disclaimer: Don’t mix the personal opinion above with the absolute and objective truth. Remember to think for yourself. Thank you.
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28-04-2011, 12:50 PM
 
RE: Might have bitten off more than I can chew here...
I really do not understand why the creation v evolution idea is open for debate. This is like arguing that water is not made of hydrogen and oxygen.
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28-04-2011, 01:07 PM (This post was last modified: 28-04-2011 01:51 PM by TheSelfishGene.)
RE: Might have bitten off more than I can chew here...
(28-04-2011 12:50 PM)m80kamikaze Wrote:  I really do not understand why the creation v evolution idea is open for debate. This is like arguing that water is not made of hydrogen and oxygen.

There would be debates over that as well, if a holy book stated that water is made of potassium. I'm jumping in ashley, I registered by the name of TheGene Big Grin
Too bad I cannot comment yet... :/

..."we can be truly free - not because we can rebel against the the tyranny of the selfish replicators but because we know that there is no one to rebel."
Susan Blackmore : The Meme Machine
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28-04-2011, 02:38 PM
RE: Might have bitten off more than I can chew here...
Creationists love to take evolution into the morals argument. Absolute morals do not exist in nature. Instead the morals that exist in human society are a construct of our social behavior. These morals are not for the benefit of an individual but are instead intended to benefit the population as a whole. Perhaps it is best when thinking about morals to consider them as applying to an entire community rather than individuals. If looked at this way the morals of the community will benefit or harm the community just like other evolutionary adaptations can benefit or harm the individual. This could explain why the basic morals that exist among every human culture are similar (murder = bad, do not steal, etc...) but not identical.

Evolve

Smartass
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/James_Beard2
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28-04-2011, 04:08 PM
RE: Might have bitten off more than I can chew here...
I'll gladly join in on this discussion, it could be interesting. It'll also be a nice distraction from the upcoming finals.

Of all the ideas put forth by science, it is the principle of Superposition that can undo any power of the gods. For the accumulation of smaller actions has the ability to create, destroy, and move the world.

"I am the master of my fate, I am the captain of my soul." -W. E. Henley
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28-04-2011, 04:22 PM (This post was last modified: 28-04-2011 05:27 PM by ashley.hunt60.)
RE: Might have bitten off more than I can chew here...
Thanks to Glaucus and TheSelfishGene for jumping in. It's a little bit lonely being the only sane one around.

And @Observer; And I had already addressed why morals evolved earlier in the thread, the above comment was talking about my personal moral code. It went like this:
Why morals evolved ---> To what I use as my moral code. We are now on what I use as my own personal moral code.

I don't believe Jesus is the son of God until I see the long form birth certificate!
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28-04-2011, 07:09 PM
RE: Might have bitten off more than I can chew here...
Morality is necessary for any social species. Humans are more intelligent than most species on the planet so obviously our moral code is more complex.
I think you should just point to the Silverfox Experiment that shows how easy it is to change behavioral traits in a species with selection - granted it's artificial but natural selection could work in a similar way over a longer course of time to arrive at similar results.

Great work holding your ground. Wink

Atheism is a religion like OFF is a TV channel !!!

Proud of my genetic relatives Big Grin
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