Might have bitten off more than I can chew here...
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28-04-2011, 08:45 PM
 
RE: Might have bitten off more than I can chew here...
JOIINING
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29-04-2011, 03:07 AM
RE: Might have bitten off more than I can chew here...
We are social beings, intent on our own survival and proliferation of our own selfish genes. We impose the rule that killing is bad because we evolved empathy. We evolved empathy because its essential in a social species that wishes to proliferate.
We are matter, and we are in motion. Why should we care what other people feel, or even if they live? Because we know what they feel when they feel pain, we empathize and we get an icky feeling when we allow for other people, or even animals to suffer, which is sympathy.
Now don't get me wrong, some of the best things in life, that which we would consider great deeds, go against evolution. A white person adopting a black child, for example. That is against your selfish gene's proliferation as your genes are not being proliferated. I don't think we should stop adopting children who need homes, I would prefer if people did. But nature is merely indifferent to our own suffering, and there is no reason to think otherwise. Sometimes the truth isn't so nice.

"I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason and intellect has intended us to forego their use." - Galileo

"Every man is guilty of all the good he did not do." - Voltaire
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29-04-2011, 04:23 AM (This post was last modified: 29-04-2011 04:34 AM by DeepThought.)
RE: Might have bitten off more than I can chew here...
I'm a little skeptical as to how impartial the moderators are at that forum. Have a look at this.

http://www.evolutionfairytale.com/guestb...t_page.htm
They claim they dont delete posts etc.. Though if you respond to a creationist saying "use a real scientific source" I.e. Not Kent Kovind,
they consider that "evobabble."

I haven't delved into the forums yet. I'm not holding my breath.. I got a spare oxygen tank just in case.


evolutionfairytale Wrote:[Image: evobabble_alert2.gif]
As a courtesy to the readers of this forum, this alert is issued when a severe variety of evo-babbler has been detected! The evo-babbler is not interested in serious, honest debate, but instead their ultimate goal, sub-conscious or not, is to waste your time. They inundate you with a conveyor belt of red herrings, strawmen, and trivial arguing over words. This alert will thus do a great service to both the owner of this forum, and the many readers from both sides of the debate who pass through.

An evo-babbler is usually someone trained at the alter of Talk.Origins, a web site that is a bastion of evo-babble that trains up little warriors of evo-babble, who go out with their new evo-babble rancor in hand and invade various discussion boards and web sites with, you guessed it, their evo-babble! It is very easy to identify and catalog an evo-babbler. Look for these top 10 classic symptoms to occur within the first few posts they make (note that it is not the substance of their argument, but how they argue that identifies them).

10) Calls you a liar or engages in some other form of ad hominem attack. Too common an occurrence to easily attribute to a Talk.Origins evo-babbler, so there is only a 30% chance you have an evo-babbler on your hands. You must look for other symptoms.

9) Has an insatiable appetite for red herrings. When you end up replying to two or more unrelated topics within your first response, there is an 80% probability you have an authentic evo-babbler on your hands!

8) Quibbles over trivial things (equivocation), such as a word in your post. This is good sign you have a genuine evo-babbler in your mist, and if it happens early and often, it rings in at an impressive 80% probability!

7) Reasons in a circle. The evo-babbler Mike Hager provided numerous examples during his perch in the guestbook, including this classic “Since the deity is unreal, it is clear that it could have created nothing.” Circular reasoning is common among evolutionists, so this one only rings in at 40% probability, so you must look for other signs to confirm the evo-babble disease.

6) Quick to invoke Occam's Razor and declare victory. A solid 75% probability you have an evo-babbler in your midst.

5) Fond of strawman arguments. This is actually prevalent among evolutionists who do not worship at the Talk.Origins alter, so you only have a 50% chance he/she is a genuine evo-babbler. Look for other symptoms to confirm the evo-babbler diagnosis. However, if the evo-babbler erected the strawman by putting words into your mouth, the disease has metastasized to stage 3 and you have an 85% probability the individual has been infected with evo-babble-itis!

4) Tries to get you to comment on what other creationists said in some other forum. About a 75% probability of evo-babble authenticity!

3) Claims you are quoting out of context. An all time Talk.Origins classic! 80% probability!

2) Asks you to quote from the proper scientific literature (i.e only pro-evolution literature). This brings a solid 90% probability you have a genuine evo-babbler on your hands!

1) And the number one sure sign – ballyhoos articles from the Talk.Origins web barracks, often with superficial knowledge of what the article says. Ironically they often do this after invoking #2 above, despite the Talk.Origins worship temple being fortunate to provide 1 scholarly article out of every 50! Also sure to be found in its wake is a ploy called elephant hurling, where they barrage you with a long and verbose list of citations in an attempt to sell the illusion they have weighty evidence. If they appeal to T.O. with their first post, it registers in at an impressive 80% accuracy! If they ballyhoo more than one reference to Talk.Origins in the same post, you have a dead-ringer evo-babbler at 99.98% probability!

When it is clear a bird-of-babble has landed and taken residence, the alert will be issued and the percher will be immediately dislodged! The percher’s post will be left intact so the audience can witness and revel at the scene of the evo-babble. The evo-babbler will immediately lose posting privileges, and if they use the forum to respond to the percher alert, will get their IP banned. They can only get reinstated by convincing me via email that they have thrown out their evo-babble auto-response handbook and are on the road to recovery!

This edict hereby goes into affect January 2nd, 2005.

Yours truly,
Fred Williams

When I see that I feel like i'm going cross-eyed. But it's interesting getting a unique perspective into their thoughts. To me the above seems really twisted. To them they must genuinely see things that way. Quite interesting really. I wonder if my account will be 'approved' by their administrator. We don't do that here. All we do is check for a valid signup email.
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29-04-2011, 05:03 AM (This post was last modified: 29-04-2011 05:08 AM by Snuff.)
RE: Might have bitten off more than I can chew here...
Edit: Well hell I tried to register and it said I am not permitted to use this board... I wonder if it has anything to do with the drop down box with Atheist? Hopefully it was just an error on my part or a configuration file in their files.

Simply take a look at this. When you click register and view the big bold letters that read Christians, please read this before proceeding you can simply find the following. (I wonder why it strictly says Christians and not Theists?) I simply will have to say this forum is going to show favoritism to the Christian members. I think I'll find it useless for even giving the forum a chance but ah, what the hell right?

Quote:

Christians, before posting on the Forum, please read!

This message is to Christians who are involved in, or considering joining an origins forum such as the Evolution Fairytale Forum. The following is my humble opinion, with help from scripture and based on 11+ years of experience engaging evolutionists. I realize evolutionists who read this will likely be offended, but it is a necessary (and perhaps worthwhile) consequence of this warning.

My number one warning to Christians is this: do not let evolutionists lead you into endless arguments that will only serve to waste your time where it can be better spent elsewhere. We know from the Bible that “we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.” (Ephesians 6:12) One of the tactics of the enemy is to get you to waste your time. So please keep this in mind as you pick your battles. We need to know when to “shake off the dust” and move on (Mark 6:11). Not only is there other ministry work you may be being held from, I also consider lost family time is often not worth the limited benefits a forum may bring to God’s kingdom.

Here are the advantages and disadvantages as I see them, to help you determine the extent you want to participate in a forum on origins. Note that the following references to evolutionists are especially true if the evolutionist is an atheist (I easily encounter more atheist evolutionists than I do theistic evolutionists on discussion boards).

Advantages

1. The CvE debate is important both for witnessing to the world, and to our own churches! Evolution is a direct assault on Genesis, the very foundation of the Bible - "If the foundations are destroyed, What can the righteous do?" (Psalms 11:3). Satan is very clever, and knows that if he places doubts in people's mind about the very first book in the Bible, then why should they believe the rest of the Bible. We need to equip ourselves to be effective creation evangelists. The Apostle Paul appealed to creation when he confronted the Greeks (Acts 17), who were the evolutionists of their day. These stoic and Epicurean philosophers did not have a foundational belief in a creator God, so preaching the cross was "foolishness" to them (1 Cor 1:23). After Paul put this foundation in place, some responded "We will hear you again on this matter", while "some men joined him and believed". Acts 17:32-34

2. Helps prepare you to debate origins in a public setting, such as with coworkers, family, etc. Keeps you tuned-up on the latest evolutionist responses.

3. Present an article or idea for review. Comments from the opposition can especially be useful, because they will often try harder to find holes or faults in your article. Evolutionists can occasionally provide good feedback, after all.

4. On occasion we may stumble upon a sincere truth-seeker, perhaps someone who never really considered that what they had been taught about evolution and the age of the earth was based on little or no evidence. Or it may be a Christian who is struggling in their beliefs and we are able to witness and/or encourage them.

Disadvantages

1. Time-consuming. Writing a good post can take time, especially when research is involved.

2. Evolutionists will try to lead you into endless debate, and they will more often than not succeed! They will always, almost without exception, get the last word. They will be relentless. This is all part of getting you to waste your time, which the spiritual enemy just loves to see you do (the evolutionist person does not necessarily “love” that they waste your time, many are probably unaware of the demonic influence on them).

3. We can succumb to the facade that we are somehow making ground with an evolutionist. The truth is, I have never once in 11+ years witnessed an activist evolutionist commit their life to Christ (frequent posters to internet boards qualify as “activists”; again we are not talking about fence-sitters, who we have had occasional success with). Evolutionists believe what they do despite any evidence presented to them. They are firmly committed to a worldview that removes accountability. Without exception, I have found that the committed evolutionist activist is always, I mean always, socially liberal. This ubiquitous connection overwhelmingly establishes the fact that you will likely never convince them, because it is not evidence but worldview that drives them; they simply do not want to be convinced (please see Romans 1:18-32).

[I realize many of us are former evolutionists, but we weren’t activists. I also realize there are exceptions to the above, but they are rare so you should not count on it happening on a forum. You should also be careful not to delude yourself into believing you are planting seeds. What I mean is this: When you plant grass, do you continually pour seeds onto you yard, over, and over, and over again? No. You plant them once and then start watering. Let the Holy Spirit bring the increase (1 Corinthians 3:6). You are wasting your time if you continually pile seeds into the same spot. ]

4. Evolutionists almost always outnumber creationists on origins boards, despite the fact that public polls show a comfortable margin of creationists over evolutionists. I believe there are two reasons for this: 1) the afore-mentioned spiritual element where the enemy is here to get you to waste your time, and 2) Christians generally do not feel the need to justify their faith on an internet forum. I for one am 100% convinced Christ is who He claims to be, and am 100% convinced of my salvation. Evolutionists on the other hand (especially atheists), feel a need to justify their faith on a regular basis. Why? We know from the Bible that deep down they really don’t believe what they believe; the Bible says they are willfully ignorant (dumb on purpose ; see Romans 1 and 2 Peter 3). The Bible also teaches that some are so far down the path to darkness that God has given up on them, such that God allows them to actually believe the lie (2 Thessalonians 2:11).

This is my humble opinion on the origins debate, and some words of wisdom from years of experience that I wanted to share with fellow Christians so they know what they are getting into if they jump into an origins forum. Generally speaking, you should only involve yourself in an origins forum for advantages 1 and 2 above - to keep you sharp on the topic, that you may later find useful when engaging coworkers, friends, and others in the world on the origins debate (occasionally you may experience advantage #4, but you shouldn't count on it). While considering these advantages, be alert that you do not at the same time fall into the trap outlined in disadvantages 2 & 3 – especially unproductive use of time. Thanks for listening!

In Christ,
Fred Williams

Note: Christian Forums such as Bible topic forums among believers is a completely different matter. I believe these are almost always a productive use of our time! As one Pastor said, “if Christ is not the topic, then you are off the topic!"
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29-04-2011, 06:23 AM (This post was last modified: 29-04-2011 09:44 AM by DeepThought.)
RE: Might have bitten off more than I can chew here...
(29-04-2011 05:03 AM)Snuff Wrote:  Edit: Well hell I tried to register and it said I am not permitted to use this board... I wonder if it has anything to do with the drop down box with Atheist? Hopefully it was just an error on my part or a configuration file in their files.

Yeah, I signed up as agnostic guessing the bias. To a theist "atheist" is a loaded word. I'm agnostic as well so it's not a lie.
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29-04-2011, 06:52 AM
RE: Might have bitten off more than I can chew here...
(29-04-2011 05:03 AM)Snuff Wrote:  Edit: Well hell I tried to register and it said I am not permitted to use this board... I wonder if it has anything to do with the drop down box with Atheist? Hopefully it was just an error on my part or a configuration file in their files.

Simply take a look at this. When you click register and view the big bold letters that read Christians, please read this before proceeding you can simply find the following. (I wonder why it strictly says Christians and not Theists?) I simply will have to say this forum is going to show favoritism to the Christian members. I think I'll find it useless for even giving the forum a chance but ah, what the hell right?

Quote:

Christians, before posting on the Forum, please read!

/long text/

Note: Christian Forums such as Bible topic forums among believers is a completely different matter. I believe these are almost always a productive use of our time! As one Pastor said, “if Christ is not the topic, then you are off the topic!"

In other words...
"be as narrow minded as possible. After all: we are not looking for the truth, we are looking for acknowledgement of our iron age believes"

Observer

Agnostic atheist
Secular humanist
Emotional rationalist
Disclaimer: Don’t mix the personal opinion above with the absolute and objective truth. Remember to think for yourself. Thank you.
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29-04-2011, 06:55 AM
RE: Might have bitten off more than I can chew here...
(29-04-2011 06:52 AM)The_observer Wrote:  
(29-04-2011 05:03 AM)Snuff Wrote:  Edit: Well hell I tried to register and it said I am not permitted to use this board... I wonder if it has anything to do with the drop down box with Atheist? Hopefully it was just an error on my part or a configuration file in their files.

Simply take a look at this. When you click register and view the big bold letters that read Christians, please read this before proceeding you can simply find the following. (I wonder why it strictly says Christians and not Theists?) I simply will have to say this forum is going to show favoritism to the Christian members. I think I'll find it useless for even giving the forum a chance but ah, what the hell right?

Quote:

Christians, before posting on the Forum, please read!

/long text/

Note: Christian Forums such as Bible topic forums among believers is a completely different matter. I believe these are almost always a productive use of our time! As one Pastor said, “if Christ is not the topic, then you are off the topic!"

In other words...
"be as narrow minded as possible. After all: we are not looking for the truth, we are looking for acknowledgement of our iron age believes"

Iron Age beliefs or stone age?

“Science is simply common sense at its best, that is, rigidly accurate in observation, and merciless to fallacy in logic.”
—Thomas Henry Huxley
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29-04-2011, 07:05 AM
RE: Might have bitten off more than I can chew here...
No stone age would be Mythology right? I think the Iron Age beliefs fits it quite well since The Crusades were fought with iron swords Tongue lol.
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29-04-2011, 07:10 AM
RE: Might have bitten off more than I can chew here...
I really like how they constantly describe discussion as wasting your time. How do you call those daily 5 minute prayers, productive?

If i ever meet a creationist i'll also be sure to tell him to fear my demonic influences. Also apparently if you spam in a Christian forum you are considered to have used your time productively.

But as an ignorant atheist I probably can't see the higher meaning.

PS:Is there a forum where you can do atheists vs creationists debates? I'd definitely want to give that a try.
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29-04-2011, 07:18 AM
RE: Might have bitten off more than I can chew here...
(29-04-2011 07:05 AM)Snuff Wrote:  No stone age would be Mythology right? I think the Iron Age beliefs fits it quite well since The Crusades were fought with iron swords Tongue lol.

Actually maybe stone age is to advanced for religion...wood age? Stick age?

“Science is simply common sense at its best, that is, rigidly accurate in observation, and merciless to fallacy in logic.”
—Thomas Henry Huxley
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