Military indoctrination
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19-10-2017, 01:54 PM
Military indoctrination
Probably I will make some enemies with this observation, but I hope not.

The military "spirit" strikes me much like religious indoctrination.

You have the training, the breaking down of individuality and creation of conformity.

You have people yelling at you and demeaning you.

You have an exclusive club - military folks are a complete sub-culture.

You have the "only we are right, all others are wrong" attitude.

You have worship of idols - flags, images, sometimes rulers.

You have obedience and marching in unison.

You have completely unnatural, jerky movements, body control.

You have march music.

And probably lots more. Currently in the US, military culture is a big thing, soldiers are heroes.

Really, often they are not, they just want the education and/or income and future security re. health insurance and such. Few actually enlist because they want to fight for the flag. That only happens after the brain washing.

Ok, go ahead and explain it to me, it has me mystified. It goes way back in history and crosses all boundaries.




[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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19-10-2017, 02:15 PM
Military indoctrination
Not exactly military indoctrination but I dislike the notion that service in army is needed to "make a man" from one. Idiocy of such concept and frequency of it's appearance astonish me.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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19-10-2017, 02:29 PM (This post was last modified: 19-10-2017 02:35 PM by Vera.)
RE: Military indoctrination
I think I might have said it before, but I, for one, can't wait for the time when our heroes will be the ones who teach and heal, not the ones who preach and kill. I can only hope that Ingersoll was right and "the ages of muscle and miracle — of fists and faith — are passing away." Won't be a moment too soon.

I have LOADS to say on the subject of the military and its glorification, but won't.

On second thought, I'll just leave this here and let those so inclined start frothing at the mouth. As has already happened before.





"E se non passa la tristezza con altri occhi la guarderò."
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19-10-2017, 02:37 PM
RE: Military indoctrination
The cultural adaptations one must make to thrive in normal society are not the same as the cultural adaptations one must make to thrive when the sole purpose of existence is to engage enemies on the battlefield. A bunch of individuals are a less effective fighting force than a mob working in unison towards a common goal, and arbitrary symbols (such as a flag) are generally the easiest way to unite large numbers of people towards said common goal when they otherwise wouldn't give two shits about each other. We are genetically pre-dispositioned to work in groups of about 100 people with whom we are intimately familiar. The concept of uniting behind a symbol allows us to work around that limitation, to a degree.

And for the record, those fancy looking people doing all the marching in the videos that come out of N Korea and China are not combat troops. They'd be massacred wholesale in a scrap Tongue They are basically professional drill soldiers. They train to march, and only to march. The fighting is done by other units who spend their time learning combat tactics. The drill units are more about morale, propaganda, and looking intimidating to people who don't know any better.

In 15 years in the military, the last time I marched with any kind of precision was basic training. For the last 6 or so years before I got out I didn't even have a completed dress uniform. Our unit didn't waste money on it because we never wore the damn things. That said, we need to be on the same page even for not drill related tasks to an extent that to an outsider it could almost appear as though we're telepathic or something.

As far as the soldiers are heroes thing, that comes and goes. I never got any of that post 9/11. By the time I was discharged, if I went to a restaurant in uniform, I'd give it about a 50% chance that someone would buy my meal for me, often anonymously.

I believe in social responsibility, but I also believe that the idea that my country is better simply because it's my country is irrational. I'm also an "achieve my objective by any means at my disposal" type of person, and recognize that sometimes feigning patriotism, or devotion to any random over-hyped cause for that matter, is sometimes the best way to enlist the aid of people whose cooperation I need in the achievement of that objective. When someone gives me the "Thank you for your service" line I shake their hand and say thank you, and I do genuinely appreciate the intent, but I don't take it to heart. Most of them, on either side of the political spectrum, don't have a clue when it comes to the bigger picture of military leverage and the projection of force. And they'd further cringe at the thought that I was doing it partially because I enjoyed it, not because I wanted to help them and whatever their ridiculous cause might be. The same can be said for many of my fellow soldiers. Acting in unison or not, we're not all the same beneath the uniform.

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19-10-2017, 02:41 PM (This post was last modified: 19-10-2017 02:47 PM by jennybee.)
RE: Military indoctrination
While I think there may be some similarities to be drawn, I think there are some major differences as well---especially in the desired objective of the training.

I come from a military family (my grandpa was in the Navy, my dad, brother, and sister were in the National Guard, my brother-in-law is a Marine and virtually everyone in my family except for me went to a military-style school). As such, just based on my own observations, I would say the major difference between religion and the military is military training is based on safety of the individual and security of our country as the primary goal of doing the training the way they do, whereas religion's primary goal is about gaining a flock, about mind control--for no other reason other than garnering funds from parishioners and having control over a sect of the population.

I think you need that military mindset (the being yelled at, the diligence in physical activity, the mental toughness, the allegiance, all of it as a way to survive and do the best job possible in protecting our country and yourself in that type of heightened situation). I think when you are in a war zone you need to be able to go into a different mindset, a different zone if you will, and I think the training is designed to do that and to weed out anyone who may not have that type of personality or mental toughness prior to getting into a warzone.

Religion, on the other hand, is totally self-serving. It's about sheep for its own benefit. Someone in the military is still able to operate within a rational mindset, separate and apart from the military (obviously in *some* cases this is not the case, but I'm talking for the most part). Someone who is brainwashed into religion cannot separate the two.

"Let the waters settle and you will see the moon and stars mirrored in your own being." -Rumi
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19-10-2017, 02:47 PM
RE: Military indoctrination
(19-10-2017 02:37 PM)yakherder Wrote:  The cultural adaptations one must make to thrive in normal society are not the same as the cultural adaptations one must make to thrive when the sole purpose of existence is to engage enemies on the battlefield. A bunch of individuals are a less effective fighting force than a mob working in unison towards a common goal, and arbitrary symbols (such as a flag) are generally the easiest way to unite large numbers of people towards said common goal when they otherwise wouldn't give two shits about each other. We are genetically pre-dispositioned to work in groups of about 100 people with whom we are intimately familiar. The concept of uniting behind a symbol allows us to work around that limitation, to a degree.

And for the record, those fancy looking people doing all the marching in the videos that come out of N Korea and China are not combat troops. They'd be massacred wholesale in a scrap Tongue They are basically professional drill soldiers. They train to march, and only to march. The fighting is done by other units who spend their time learning combat tactics. The drill units are more about morale, propaganda, and looking intimidating to people who don't know any better.

In 15 years in the military, the last time I marched with any kind of precision was basic training. For the last 6 or so years before I got out I didn't even have a completed dress uniform. Our unit didn't waste money on it because we never wore the damn things. That said, we need to be on the same page even for not drill related tasks to an extent that to an outsider it could almost appear as though we're telepathic or something.

As far as the soldiers are heroes thing, that comes and goes. I never got any of that post 9/11. By the time I was discharged, if I went to a restaurant in uniform, I'd give it about a 50% chance that someone would buy my meal for me, often anonymously.

I believe in social responsibility, but I also believe that the idea that my country is better simply because it's my country is irrational. I'm also an "achieve my objective by any means at my disposal" type of person, and recognize that sometimes feigning patriotism, or devotion to any random over-hyped cause for that matter, is sometimes the best way to enlist the aid of people whose cooperation I need in the achievement of that objective. When someone gives me the "Thank you for your service" line I shake their hand and say thank you, and I do genuinely appreciate the intent, but I don't take it to heart. Most of them, on either side of the political spectrum, don't have a clue when it comes to the bigger picture of military leverage and the projection of force. And they'd further cringe at the thought that I was doing it partially because I enjoyed it, not because I wanted to help them and whatever their ridiculous cause might be. The same can be said for many of my fellow soldiers. Acting in unison or not, we're not all the same beneath the uniform.

Well said, yak, and echoes much of my own experience in the military. The point (or perhaps nuance is a better word) that is often missed in comparing the indoctrination to things like religion etc. is the end goal is very different. Right or wrong, the men and women in the military will often be in life or death situations, and you are quite literally placing your life in someone else's hands. If they fail to execute, or conform to proper procedure the results could be catastrophic.

Do some things go over the top? Absolutely. But the need to break down the individual in order to build them up into one crucial (but interchangeable) part of something bigger is essential and at the core of basic training.

It's funny, I often felt similarly to Dom and Vera prior to joining (for a host of diverse personal reasons) but after being part of it, I kind of get the unique camaraderie that the military engenders.
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19-10-2017, 03:04 PM
RE: Military indoctrination
(19-10-2017 01:54 PM)Dom Wrote:  The military "spirit" strikes me much like religious indoctrination.

You have the training, the breaking down of individuality and creation of conformity.

You have people yelling at you and demeaning you.

You have an exclusive club - military folks are a complete sub-culture.
It's perhaps the alure of many clubs and subgroups.
Can be in music (a genre e.g. Heavy Metal, or perhaps a specific band), could also be regards sports (supporting a specific club) or perhaps getting into a not so common club such as yachting.
They tend to have their idols (role models) and the reciprocal is our worship of them, their lingo, their symbols, their controversies etc.
I think it feeds into the psych of a lot of people on a lot of different levels.
Some people like to be tech geeks (gives them the self impression that they are smart), some people genuinely want to know stuff so that they can help newbies, some just like to get their minds exercised by learning the history, the technology etc. For some it is a hobby, for some it is something that they can feel special about because perhaps they are really good at it, or perhaps they can learn stuff that others don't know.

So why does a person choose a religion over a music band over a sport over military?

Religion and military probably have a strong indoctrination aspect, being brought up in a religious family or area or being brought up in a military family.

My feeling regarding US is that US has a huge patriotic thing going on. Indoctrinated in schools (pledging allegiance to the flag), their infighting regarding constitution, their infighting regarding gun rights. Also, as e know US is the military might of the world, so that is something that may make USA folk feel special.


(19-10-2017 01:54 PM)Dom Wrote:  Currently in the US, military culture is a big thing, soldiers are heroes.
When USA businesses try to pitch products or initiatives over here (NZ) they often come up with military analogies e.g. "taking the hill", "a strategic weapon", "going nuclear" as some way to get people excited. Perhaps it works in USA, over here it gets many eyes rolling about how cringe worthy these analogies are.
I guess it is about a cultural divide. Locally here, we aren't enthusiastic about wars and weapons.
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19-10-2017, 03:22 PM
RE: Military indoctrination
(19-10-2017 01:54 PM)Dom Wrote:  Probably I will make some enemies with this observation, but I hope not.

The military "spirit" strikes me much like religious indoctrination.

You have the training, the breaking down of individuality and creation of conformity.

You have people yelling at you and demeaning you.

You have an exclusive club - military folks are a complete sub-culture.

You have the "only we are right, all others are wrong" attitude.

You have worship of idols - flags, images, sometimes rulers.

You have obedience and marching in unison.

You have completely unnatural, jerky movements, body control.

You have march music.

And probably lots more. Currently in the US, military culture is a big thing, soldiers are heroes.

Really, often they are not, they just want the education and/or income and future security re. health insurance and such. Few actually enlist because they want to fight for the flag. That only happens after the brain washing.

Ok, go ahead and explain it to me, it has me mystified. It goes way back in history and crosses all boundaries.



Your next post should be on why being a woman isn't all that complicated.
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19-10-2017, 03:27 PM
RE: Military indoctrination
(19-10-2017 02:29 PM)Vera Wrote:  


Universal Soldier
Donovan
He's five feet two and he's six feet four
He fights with missiles and with spears
He's all of 31 and he's only 17
He's been a soldier for a thousand years
He's a Catholic, a Hindu, an athiest, a Jain,
a Buddhist and a Baptist and a Jew
and he knows he shouldn't kill
and he knows he always will
kill you for me my friend and me for you
And he's fighting for Canada,
he's fighting for France,
he's fighting for the USA,
and he's fighting for the Russians
and he's fighting for Japan,
and he thinks we'll put an end to war this way
And he's fighting for Democracy
and fighting for the Reds
He says it's for the peace of all
He's the one who must decide
who's to live and who's to die
and he never sees the writing on the walls
But without him how would Hitler have
condemned him at Dachau
Without him Caesar would have stood alone
He's the one who gives his body
as a weapon to a war
and without him all this killing can't go on
He's the universal soldier and he
really is to blame
His orders come from far away no more
They come from him, and you, and me
and brothers can't you see
this is not the way we put an end to war

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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19-10-2017, 03:31 PM
RE: Military indoctrination
(19-10-2017 03:22 PM)Gawdzilla Wrote:  Your next post should be on why being a woman isn't all that complicated.

Huh? But, let's stay on topic a while, I am really interested in hearing everyone's opinion.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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