Military indoctrination
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
19-10-2017, 08:44 PM
RE: Military indoctrination
(19-10-2017 08:42 PM)jerry mcmasters Wrote:  
(19-10-2017 08:34 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  Vietnam was a fucked war. it wasn't their military service exactly it was the war that was fucked up.

My father never talked about it either. Of course none of them did, lest someone else call him a baby burner. Men were shamed (some just for the fact they survived) when they returned, and just wanted to return to their lives and forget that shit ever happened.

It's only been in the last decade or so that Vietnam vets began communicating with each other and talking about what they saw. Many continue to suffer in silence.

But...thinking back, my grandfather rarely spoke about his experiences in WW2 either.

Maybe there's just some truth to the phrase. War is hell.

It's probably apocryphal but may contain grains of truth- I've always heard that those that were really in shit-hitting-the-fan combat don't talk about it or at least don't talk about it for a long long time, while those that were in a warzone but saw no combat, well, they've got blood and guts war stories aplenty.

I tried not talking about it, and I found it better to speak my mind. Silence implies agreement, even with the stupid shit.
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
19-10-2017, 08:49 PM
RE: Military indoctrination
(19-10-2017 08:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  
(19-10-2017 08:44 PM)Gawdzilla Wrote:  I tried not talking about it, and I found it better to speak my mind. Silence implies agreement, even with the stupid shit.

I'll have to disagree with that. You don't jump into every thread on this forum, does that mean you silently agree with whatever it is?

No you jumped into this thread because the topic was rather inflammatory, but others have pointed out the flaws in Dom's logic and given honest and amazingly thoughtful replies.

You went the other way...

So there's that.

Now why don't you go settle down.

Thanks in advance.
Harken back to what started this, the stupidity that kicked it off. I won't be silenced by the finger-waggers. That day is long over.
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
19-10-2017, 08:54 PM (This post was last modified: 19-10-2017 08:58 PM by evenheathen.)
RE: Military indoctrination
(19-10-2017 08:42 PM)Gawdzilla Wrote:  Sorry if you find it disrespectful, we find it just the same old shit. And as it was anonymous, no indication of poster or forum she doesn't have to be embarrassed, justified though that be.

Just remember that Google is a powerful tool. People can search quotes and a lot of times find the origin. I know it's the internet and all, but this isn't Facebook and we don't want it to be.

As far as the same old shit, pot and kettle. Maybe we should try talking to each other instead of reacting with disregard?

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
19-10-2017, 09:03 PM
RE: Military indoctrination
(19-10-2017 08:54 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  
(19-10-2017 08:42 PM)Gawdzilla Wrote:  Sorry if you find it disrespectful, we find it just the same old shit. And as it was anonymous, no indication of poster or forum she doesn't have to be embarrassed, justified though that be.

Just remember that Google is a powerful tool. People can search quotes and a lot of times find the origin. I know it's the internet and all, but this isn't Facebook and we don't want it to be.

As far as the same old shit, pot and kettle. Maybe we should try talking to each other instead of reacting with disregard?
I tried, people read posts I didn't make and reacted to what they wanted me to say. Same old shit.
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
19-10-2017, 10:27 PM
RE: Military indoctrination
(19-10-2017 09:03 PM)Gawdzilla Wrote:  I tried, people read posts I didn't make and reacted to what they wanted me to say. Same old shit.

Fair enough. I don't get around the forums like i used to, so this thread is all I have to go on for this discussion, but I'm listening here and now.

What do you consider "the same old shit" and why does it bother you?

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
19-10-2017, 11:23 PM
RE: Military indoctrination
Mind you I was in the reserves avoiding being drafted to maybe go to Vietnam so consider that in my comments. I found no significant indoctrination. I suspect if I was combat infantry it might have been different but after basic it was off to cooks school.

The OP I believe is incorrect. It is not like being indoctrinated similar to religion. The training is being taught your job as a soldier. Including as a fellow reservist returned from Vietnam, talked about learning to pluck and clean chickens to supplement his mates food.

One should differentiate between the use of soldiers and what training they go through.

I may and do find war abhorrent that does not mean that warriors when called on are the equivalent of religious fanatics.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
19-10-2017, 11:43 PM (This post was last modified: 19-10-2017 11:50 PM by Thumpalumpacus.)
RE: Military indoctrination
My military experience was not as an automaton. I was expected to carry out my duty. Sure, I had a drill sergeant barking at me (us) about how he was going to break us down and rebuild us the way the Air Force wanted, but we all knew that was horseshit. What they wanted was someone who did as told on the spot.

That did not, however, stop me from questioning, to my supervisors, the fundamentals of our mission -- away from the fireground (I was a firefighter, not a combat troop, but questioning can be just as deadly there). My supes had no problem with me thinking for myself and asking question. Matter of fact, I think they sorta liked it, because it gave them a little soapbox.

When I reported to my first duty station, I had a conversation along these lines with my first supe, Ssgt Lucas MacDonald. I talked to him about the "rebuild the way the USAF wants you" stuff the DI had yelled at us, and he laughed, replying in his soft Virginia accent, "We don't want robots, robots are dangerous. They get people killed. We want people who can think for themselves, at the moment's notice, and keep the damned mission in mind. Get in there, put out the fire, and get the FOOD."

There was nothing religious about my service. I didn't Make the World Safe from Fire™ because I was programmed to do so. I ran right the hell into burners because I knew that others were counting on me to do that, and that if I didn't, those others could die, and I'd be goddamned if I let them down.

We always judged new arrivals at the fire station, and eventually it would come down to one of two judgements: "I'd fight fire with him, sure," or "please dear lord don't put him in a burner with me". I'd rather have died than have to face my compatriots at roll-call the next morning knowing that my dereliction had gotten another man killed. We didn't do what we did for god or country or apple-pie. We did it for each other, we were in the same shithole eating the same shitty food and swapping the same shop-worn stories about the woman back home or the drunk we had the night before deployment.

So I focused on mission -- tactics, strategies, equipment, and making sure I was ready. There was nothing programmatic about it. It was about making sure we all got back to the station for another game of pool. It was about making sure I wouldn't let the guys down. It was about making sure that I could look myself in the mirror knowing I'd done my duty.

It had fuck-all to do with high and noble purpose, but that was noble enough for me.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 4 users Like Thumpalumpacus's post
20-10-2017, 01:31 AM
RE: Military indoctrination
(19-10-2017 02:37 PM)yakherder Wrote:  The cultural adaptations one must make to thrive in normal society are not the same...

A bunch of individuals are a less effective fighting force than a mob working in unison towards a common goal...

And for the record, those fancy looking people doing all the marching in the videos that come out of N Korea and China are not combat troops. They'd be massacred wholesale in a scrap. They are basically professional drill soldiers....

In 15 years in the military, the last time I marched with any kind of precision was basic training...

Being ex-military myself, I totally concur with you. I can understand that it's difficult for any civilian who's never been in the services to understand the inner workings and logic [sic ] of the "green machine", but there's really no valid comparison with civvy street. Of necessity, it's a different world.

I'm a creationist... I believe that man created God.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes SYZ's post
20-10-2017, 01:58 AM
RE: Military indoctrination
(19-10-2017 01:54 PM)Dom Wrote:  Probably I will make some enemies with this observation, but I hope not...

So you obviously expected to wear some flak Dom, but then if you admit to posting inflammatory comments in advance, you can't really complain further down the track when they appear can you?

I won't respond to your other comments other than to say I too found them somewhat bizarre, particularly as you admit that the military machine "mystifies" you, and your claim that it "brainwashes" its members. As ex-military, that last I find both ill-informed and patronising. Sorry.

I'm a creationist... I believe that man created God.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
20-10-2017, 02:04 AM
RE: Military indoctrination
(20-10-2017 01:58 AM)SYZ Wrote:  
(19-10-2017 01:54 PM)Dom Wrote:  Probably I will make some enemies with this observation, but I hope not...

So you obviously expected to wear some flak Dom, but then if you admit to posting inflammatory comments in advance, you can't really complain further down the track when they appear can you?

I won't respond to your other comments other than to say I too found them somewhat bizarre, particularly as you admit that the military machine "mystifies" you, and your claim that it "brainwashes" its members. As ex-military, that last I find both ill-informed and patronising. Sorry.
I don't think Dom was trying to proclaim how it is. Dom was just expressing her perception as a starting point of conversation.
Rather than getting all pissy about it, a more productive and far less dramatic approach would be to simply offer her your actual experiences of it.

It makes no sense to play the "Oh, I'm so offended..." card. Are people here really so thinned skinned that they can't understand that outsiders have a perception and are willing to engage in conversation to find out if their perception is true or if reality is quite different?
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Stevil's post
Post Reply
Forum Jump: