Military indoctrination
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20-10-2017, 06:38 PM
RE: Military indoctrination
(20-10-2017 03:44 PM)Gawdzilla Wrote:  
(20-10-2017 02:00 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  That's it. What's most fascinating to me is that when everyone realizes they are replaceable and interchangeable cogs in the machine, nemo residio results as the fundamental ethic. It's like one them there paradoxes.
Weirdly, we think of each other as human beings. I know, I know, but it happens.

Aye, the comraderie of the military intensifies that.

#sigh
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20-10-2017, 07:37 PM
RE: Military indoctrination
(20-10-2017 06:26 PM)Dom Wrote:  Moms, it's cultural. Europeans see war very differently from US people. Don't take it personal. I got one foot in each culture and I get both. I don't get the flag business, but I do get the service business.

Right. And for the record, I guess I feel both sides at the same time. I hate the "rah rah" that the military instills in our culture, given the nature of what it is that they are training to do...but I also respect the need for it and the sacrifice that is given by those who do so. Well, "need" is an operative term there, thus the reluctance to celebrate any of it.

I guess what I have a problem with is the celebratory way that we revere and demand respect for institutions that are focused on destruction to other humans. It's disturbing even if necessary.

I don't have a problem with any individuals willing to do what's necessary (again an operative term) to protect us, but the whole thing leaves me with a sour stomach when I think about it.

Especially when do much of what's done in the name of protection is nothing but a proliferation of war itself to serve the powers that be, again not the fault of the pawns in the game. The pawns are the victims, along with the civilian casualties.

It's just sad and needless.
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20-10-2017, 07:37 PM
RE: Military indoctrination
It's a dirty job, but someone's got to do it. Last I checked, assholes are birthed in all countries, and defense against them seems appropriate. While I agree that my country's military actions and budget are both all out of whack with the existential requirements of our defense, ladling the scorn that that opinion engenders onto the shoulders of those who have little or no say in policy seems a bit farfetched.

I'd be willing to bet that no one hates war more than those tasked to fight it (Yak excluded, perhaps?). I'd also be willing to bet that if every single army on Earth were disbanded tomorrow, there's still be some asshole rounding up other assholes into a mob that would -- ahem -- require an army to put down.
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20-10-2017, 08:11 PM
RE: Military indoctrination
Well said Evenheathen. The replies here from our vets remind me that the grunts don't get to choose whether they are in a needed legit defense of their homeland or whether they are pawns thrown away uselessly so a politician can say "the history books won't say I lost that war" or "they've got weapons of mass destruction." Do some people join the military just so they can indulge macho dickhead fantasies? Sure, and there are also people that become cops, teachers, politicians, and Catholic priests so they can do their selfish damage. What percent is that? I think incredibly not high. And of the rest, I don't notice a high degree of willingness to give up their individuality in the process, rather a willingness to do what is needed to be the most efficient force possible, both for the individual and the group, in case of need.

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20-10-2017, 08:12 PM
RE: Military indoctrination
(20-10-2017 07:37 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  It's a dirty job, but someone's got to do it. Last I checked, assholes are birthed in all countries, and defense against them seems appropriate. While I agree that my country's military actions and budget are both all out of whack with the existential requirements of our defense, ladling the scorn that that opinion engenders onto the shoulders of those who have little or no say in policy seems a bit farfetched.

I'd be willing to bet that no one hates war more than those tasked to fight it (Yak excluded, perhaps?). I'd also be willing to bet that if every single army on Earth were disbanded tomorrow, there's still be some asshole rounding up other assholes into a mob that would -- ahem -- require an army to put down.

Ah, you are in my frame of mind, better said and with less words!

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20-10-2017, 08:30 PM
RE: Military indoctrination
Had good experiences working with French, British, Polish GROM, Macedonians... I'd say Europe is quite varied on its views of war and the mentality under which its soldiers from various countries operate. There was only one country whose soldiers, responsible for a post not far from ours on the outskirts of Bagram, I felt were pretty much worthless (mostly on account of their leadership and the political pressure they were under to avoid confrontation at all costs). They were basically just there so they could say they did their part. I'm not gonna say who on a public forum Tongue. It was a relief when they finally packed up and went home and were replaced by French soldiers. The French soldiers dispelled all the "white flag waving French" myths we used to joke about.

'Murican Canadian
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20-10-2017, 08:31 PM
RE: Military indoctrination
(20-10-2017 06:26 PM)Dom Wrote:  
(20-10-2017 06:20 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  I don't really give a shit what trump thinks or doesn't think. I don't give a shit what you think either. This isn't really about him at all.

I've got two friends buried in Golden Gate national cemetery in San Bruno, California. I can't just sit by and let people like Vera talk shit about them, painting them with the same broad brush strokes, making fun of them and the sacrifice they made and their families made.

This thread has already hit a new low.

Moms, it's cultural. Europeans see war very differently from US people. Don't take it personal. I got one foot in each culture and I get both. I don't get the flag business, but I do get the service business.

I'm sorry but she's been on this forum long enough to know that most of us aren't like that.

The only flag I have was one from my grandfather's military service. It's still wrapped up. I don't wave a flag but I support our troops who carry it.

I think the lessons learned from the Vietnam era isn't about winners or losers, it's about laying appropriate blame. The troops weren't to blame (most of them were drafted anyway), but they received horrible treatment during and after their service. This wasn't about winning or losing, it was only about how incredibly unpopular the war was. The men who returned from Granada got more respect.

If a vietnam vet, in the mid to late 70s didn't mention their service, it's because there was always that person who would basically call them a baby killer and murderer. I remember our neighbor talking about that. He was stationed in Guam and the only thing he personally killed was a pig with a jeep. No one ever thanked him for his service (he didn't expect that) while he was serving or after he served, but people felt fine telling him what a big murderer he was.

I'm glad people are a little kinder.


But as if to knock me down, reality came around
And without so much as a mere touch, cut me into little pieces

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20-10-2017, 09:02 PM (This post was last modified: 21-10-2017 05:20 AM by Anjele.)
RE: Military indoctrination
(20-10-2017 07:47 AM)Dom Wrote:  Oh, and Angele, your description of your service made me realize something about myself that probably plays a part here too. I don't do well being a part of large groups. I form good relationships with individuals and small groups, but large groups are a horror to me (introvert). It never occurred to me that people enjoyed training as a challenge. I can understand that.

As an introvert myself, living in an old WWII barracks with a bunch of women I didn't know was a challenge in and of itself. Too many people said that I would not make it through training for me to allow myself to fail. I was on a personal mission to figure it out.

Being constantly cold and tired and often wet and muddy was something we had to figure out how to deal with. We learned to accept that if one person screwed up we would all be doing grass drills in a small valley filled with icy cold water. Dodgy There were times we dragged people along and times we were the ones being dragged.

There were challenges with personalities and there was NO privacy. The only chance you had for a short time to your own thoughts meant you gave up sleep to be on fire guard in the middle of the night.

I am still in contact with one of my platoon mates and have fond memories (and pictures) of some others.

I was totally out of my comfort zone and had to dig deep within and rely on others to make it through...and out of it came some good memories.

See here they are the bruises some were self-inflicted and some showed up along the way. - JF
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20-10-2017, 09:22 PM
RE: Military indoctrination
(20-10-2017 06:20 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  I can't just sit by and let people like Vera

Thank you. The feeling is mutual.

And I cannot sit by while people like everybody in America glorify what is one of the dirtiest profession as if it were the height of human dignity.

I was talking about the military as an institution and it is a vile one, with even vile roots, not every one of its members.

And yeah, the thread did hit a new low of stupidity with the "'murrica saved Europe's ass" in WWII. And, of course, they did out of the goodness of their heart.

"E se non passa la tristezza con altri occhi la guarderĂ²."
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20-10-2017, 11:07 PM
RE: Military indoctrination
(20-10-2017 09:22 PM)Vera Wrote:  And yeah, the thread did hit a new low of stupidity with the "'murrica saved Europe's ass" in WWII. And, of course, they did out of the goodness of their heart.

I think they kind of did. Well. Some parts of Europe anyway. Sure, at the same time they laid the foundation for global hegemony. But they didn't have to get involved. Pearl Harbour helped to shift opinion towards war - before that FDR was covertly supporting Britain with material and even a few pilots, but was having difficulty convincing people to go further. When they did enter the war and afterwards, it was the Marshall plan financed by America which helped to restructure Europe's economies, with the specific goal of preventing war in Europe in the future. This is just what I understand from my reading...

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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