Millions LOSE insurance because of Obamacare. Around 1,000 get insurance
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05-11-2013, 11:03 PM
RE: Millions LOSE insurance because of Obamacare. Around 1,000 get insurance
Frank....this is you: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum

Just because a MAJORITY of your MEDIA outlets say something is widely believed....does NOT make it truth.

Shock And Awe Tactics-- The "application of massive or overwhelming force" to "disarm, incapacitate, or render the enemy impotent with as few casualties to ourselves and to noncombatants as possible"
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06-11-2013, 12:02 PM
RE: Millions LOSE insurance because of Obamacare. Around 1,000 get insurance
(05-11-2013 11:03 PM)Likos02 Wrote:  Frank....this is you: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum

Just because a MAJORITY of your MEDIA outlets say something is widely believed....does NOT make it truth.

Agreed, and I do often times hold views that the mainstream rejects. However, see Bryans post #28. He explains it well. In this case, the issue that Obama lied when he said people could keep their plan is so well documented, so well researched, with so much documentation, and there is no credible dissenting view. That Daily Kos article is the only one I've seen that disputes this, and, as Bryan points out, it's just a puppet repeating what the President said and the author didn't actually research the issue or read the regulations. So, yes, this is reported by all major media outlets, but that's not the reason why it's true; it's true because the facts support it and nobody has come up with a credible argument to the contrary.
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06-11-2013, 12:06 PM
RE: Millions LOSE insurance because of Obamacare. Around 1,000 get insurance
(06-11-2013 12:02 PM)frankksj Wrote:  
(05-11-2013 11:03 PM)Likos02 Wrote:  Frank....this is you: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum

Just because a MAJORITY of your MEDIA outlets say something is widely believed....does NOT make it truth.

Agreed, and I do often times hold views that the mainstream rejects. However, see Bryans post #28. He explains it well. In this case, the issue that Obama lied when he said people could keep their plan is so well documented, so well researched, with so much documentation, and there is no credible dissenting view. That Daily Kos article is the only one I've seen that disputes this, and, as Bryan points out, it's just a puppet repeating what the President said and the author didn't actually research the issue or read the regulations. So, yes, this is reported by all major media outlets, but that's not the reason why it's true; it's true because the facts support it and nobody has come up with a credible argument to the contrary.

Well, nothing credible except the actual text of the law and the regulations. Drinking Beverage

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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06-11-2013, 12:14 PM
RE: Millions LOSE insurance because of Obamacare. Around 1,000 get insurance
Oh man. Whenever I need a laugh these days I just look and see what the U.S. is up to.
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06-11-2013, 05:41 PM
RE: Millions LOSE insurance because of Obamacare. Around 1,000 get insurance
(06-11-2013 12:06 PM)Chas Wrote:  Well, nothing credible except the actual text of the law and the regulations. Drinking Beverage

We're talking about this link, right?

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/10/29...Obamacare#

Where does it reference all the regulations, such as the $5 one?
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06-11-2013, 06:25 PM
RE: Millions LOSE insurance because of Obamacare. Around 1,000 get insurance
(06-11-2013 05:41 PM)frankksj Wrote:  
(06-11-2013 12:06 PM)Chas Wrote:  Well, nothing credible except the actual text of the law and the regulations. Drinking Beverage

We're talking about this link, right?

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/10/29...Obamacare#

Where does it reference all the regulations, such as the $5 one?

No, I'm referring to the actual published text of the law and regulations that I quoted in a previous post.

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06-11-2013, 09:30 PM
RE: Millions LOSE insurance because of Obamacare. Around 1,000 get insurance
"You quoted the law? BUT THAT CAN'T BE RIGHT, THE MEDIA SAYS IT'S WRONG AND OBAMA LIED AND WHHAAAAAAH!"

This is the only rebuttal I'm seeing to chas' argument. Media is not a credible source, when in college (or shit even high school) don't quote media, you'll be laughed out of the classroom. Just because BryanS (or you) can explain something well doesn't mean it's factual. Chas on the other hand, has repeatedly destroyed your arguments with actual laws and regulations.

Please keep citing Media as your source, I love to laugh at you.

Shock And Awe Tactics-- The "application of massive or overwhelming force" to "disarm, incapacitate, or render the enemy impotent with as few casualties to ourselves and to noncombatants as possible"
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06-11-2013, 10:59 PM
RE: Millions LOSE insurance because of Obamacare. Around 1,000 get insurance
(06-11-2013 09:30 PM)Likos02 Wrote:  "You quoted the law? BUT THAT CAN'T BE RIGHT, THE MEDIA SAYS IT'S WRONG AND OBAMA LIED AND WHHAAAAAAH!"

This is the only rebuttal I'm seeing to chas' argument. Please keep citing Media as your source, I love to laugh at you...

Chas on the other hand, has repeatedly destroyed your arguments with actual laws and regulations.

It's amazing because Monday night EVEN Obama himself admitted that it's not true that if you like your plan you keep it. See: Politifact. There are direct, verbatim word-for-word quotes of what Obama said on Monday when he admitted that if there were changes to your plan (which there are every year), the insurance company was not allowed to grandfather the plan. So you guys need to setup an emergency meeting with Obama and explain to him he needs to retract that because he really WAS telling the truth after all. Even Obama has thrown in the towel on this, but you guys keep fighting.

Even more amazing is how that self-defense filter in your brain works. Every time something is posted that you don't like, you seem to actually convince yourself that it didn't happen. It's wiped from your consciousness. You are arguing that Chas is copy/pasting the actual law, and Bryan and I are simply relying on 'because the media said so'.

Uh, who is the one who copied and pasted direct links to the Federal Registry showing one example of the additional regulations that were imposed with Obamacare, that are NOT part of the law? Oh, yeah, it was Bryan. Oops.

Before Bryan's post, did @Chas even acknowledge the fact that in addition to the 650 pages in Obamacare, there are tons of other new regulations which limit what plans can be grandfathered? I dare you, double dare, triple dare you to copy/paste when Chas even acknowledged this fact until Bryan and I kept ramming it down his throat.

You want copy/paste of the actual laws. Here you go. This is just a small portion of the regulations that are in adjunct to Obamacare. See how often it refers to 'ceasing to be a grandfathered plan'? That $5 copay Bryan quoted is just one example. If there's any changes in the cost-sharing, or in the benefits, or copayment, or contribution rate, or annual limits, etc., etc. Since all insurance plans go through changes every year, it's impossible to keep your plan.

Further, watch that video. 37 times Obama pledged that if 'you like your plan you can keep it'. He never said '--only if there are no changes'. He said you like it, you can keep it. PERIOD. THAT WAS A LIE. I LIKED MY PLAN AND I AM NOT ABLE TO KEEP IT. I already pasted a scanned copy of the cancellation notice from Anthem proving that I CANNOT KEEP MY PLAN!!!

(g) Maintenance of grandfather
status—(1) Changes causing cessation of
grandfather status. Subject to paragraph
(g)(2) of this section, the rules of this
paragraph (g)(1) describe situations in
which a group health plan or health
insurance coverage ceases to be a
grandfathered health plan.
(i) Elimination of benefits. The
elimination of all or substantially all
benefits to diagnose or treat a particular
condition causes a group health plan or
health insurance coverage to cease to be
a grandfathered health plan. For this
purpose, the elimination of benefits for
any necessary element to diagnose or
treat a condition is considered the
elimination of all or substantially all
benefits to diagnose or treat a particular
condition.
(ii) Increase in percentage cost-
sharing requirement. Any increase,
measured from March 23, 2010, in a
percentage cost-sharing requirement
(such as an individual’s coinsurance
requirement) causes a group health plan
or health insurance coverage to cease to
be a grandfathered health plan.
(iii) Increase in a fixed-amount cost-
sharing requirement other than a
copayment. Any increase in a fixed-
amount cost-sharing requirement other
than a copayment (for example,
deductible or out-of-pocket limit),
determined as of the effective date of the
increase, causes a group health plan or
health insurance coverage to cease to be
a grandfathered health plan, if the total
percentage increase in the cost-sharing
requirement measured from March 23,
2010 exceeds the maximum percentage
increase (as defined in paragraph
(g)(3)(ii) of this section).
(iv) Increase in a fixed-amount
copayment. Any increase in a fixed-
amount copayment, determined as of
the effective date of the increase, causes
a group health plan or health insurance
coverage to cease to be a grandfathered
health plan, if the total increase in the
copayment measured from March 23,
2010 exceeds the greater of:
(A) An amount equal to $5 increased
by medical inflation, as defined in
paragraph (g)(3)(i) of this section (that
is, $5 times medical inflation, plus $5),
or
(B) The maximum percentage increase
(as defined in paragraph (g)(3)(ii) of this
section), determined by expressing the
total increase in the copayment as a
percentage.
(v) Decrease in contribution rate by
employers and employee
organizations—(A) Contribution rate
based on cost of coverage. A group
health plan or group health insurance
coverage ceases to be a grandfathered
health plan if the employer or employee
organization decreases its contribution
rate based on cost of coverage (as
defined in paragraph (g)(3)(iii)(A) of this
section) towards the cost of any tier of
coverage for any class of similarly
situated individuals (as described in
§ 54.9802–1(d)) by more than 5
percentage points below the
contribution rate for the coverage period
that includes March 23, 2010.
(B) Contribution rate based on a
formula. A group health plan or group
health insurance coverage ceases to be
a grandfathered health plan if the
employer or employee organization
decreases its contribution rate based on
a formula (as defined in paragraph
(g)(3)(iii)(B) of this section) towards the
cost of any tier of coverage for any class
of similarly situated individuals (as
described in § 54.9802–1(d)) by more
than 5 percent below the contribution
rate for the coverage period that
includes March 23, 2010.
(vi) Changes in annual limits—(A)
Addition of an annual limit. A group
health plan, or group health insurance
coverage, that, on March 23, 2010, did
not impose an overall annual or lifetime
limit on the dollar value of all benefits
ceases to be a grandfathered health plan
if the plan or health insurance coverage
imposes an overall annual limit on the
dollar value of benefits.
(B) Decrease in limit for a plan or
coverage with only a lifetime limit. A
group health plan, or group health
insurance coverage, that, on March 23,
2010, imposed an overall lifetime limit
on the dollar value of all benefits but no
overall annual limit on the dollar value
of all benefits ceases to be a
grandfathered health plan if the plan or
health insurance coverage adopts an
overall annual limit at a dollar value
that is lower than the dollar value of the
lifetime limit on March 23, 2010.
© Decrease in limit for a plan or
coverage with an annual limit. A group
health plan, or group health insurance
coverage, that, on March 23, 2010,
imposed an overall annual limit on the
dollar value of all benefits ceases to be
a grandfathered health plan if the plan
or health insurance coverage decreases
the dollar value of the annual limit
(regardless of whether the plan or health
insurance coverage also imposed an
overall lifetime limit on March 23, 2010
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07-11-2013, 01:01 AM
RE: Millions LOSE insurance because of Obamacare. Around 1,000 get insurance
In after Obama apologists.


The man should sack up and admit that his law is a flop and take the high ground by vowing to dismantle it and work on a bipartisan health care solution. I won't hold my breath.

“Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it's time to pause and reflect.”

-Mark Twain
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07-11-2013, 09:50 AM
RE: Millions LOSE insurance because of Obamacare. Around 1,000 get insurance
(07-11-2013 01:01 AM)germanyt Wrote:  In after Obama apologists.


The man should sack up and admit that his law is a flop and take the high ground by vowing to dismantle it and work on a bipartisan health care solution. I won't hold my breath.

Chas, Likos02, et al, should read their history books. Being able to admit it when your leader is lying or doing something wrong does NOT make you a traitor--it's the hallmark of an open-minded, pragmatic person. Think of all the horrific tragedies resulting from their mindset. Like the Catholics throughout history who insist the church is infallible. Crusades, witch hunts, book burning.... They think they're being loyal by backing the church no matter what. But it's the opposite.

Same thing here. That last fact check shows video where 37 times Obama said "If you like your plan, you can keep it. PERIOD" Unconditionally. No conditions attached. He never once said 'you can keep it only if the copay never changes'. Nor did he ever acknowledge 'you can keep it only for 5 years'. So, when people studied the law and concluded that his statements were lies, and that there are a ton of conditions and caveats Obama failed to disclose, it would be a sign of true loyalty to the Democratic party to admit that Obama screwed up, and to learn a lesson and not repeat that mistake. But, no, they can't even admit that Obama was wrong. Thus, they haven't learned from the mistake, and will keep making it.

They attack holocaust deniers, but they do the same thing as "Keep your plan" deniers. They bury their head, ignore all the facts, and refuse to accept that this (Obama lying) actually happened despite all the historical evidence.
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