Mininum Wage Protest
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08-12-2013, 11:15 AM
RE: Mininum Wage Protest
(05-12-2013 08:04 PM)frankksj Wrote:  
(05-12-2013 08:00 PM)Chas Wrote:  However, I have no problem with legislation...

Chas, I'm sorry, but you avoided the question again. I said that your plan involved using force to make sure everyone complied. You corrected me that you weren't going to use force. So I asked you to tell me how you plan to accomplish this then. If you don't answer it'd make it look like I knew your position better than you yourself. You don't want that to happen. So, please, explain how this legislation will work, how will it be enforced, and what will happen to employers who stubbornly refuse to comply no matter what administrative measures you use?

All legislation is coercive. It is always backed up with force.

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08-12-2013, 11:16 AM
RE: Mininum Wage Protest
(07-12-2013 02:53 AM)GirlyMan Wrote:  The Red states are rejecting the Medicaid expansion and everything else about the ACA. I wouldn't want to be a poor person in a Red State rejecting the ACA. You're just fucking fucked.

You know I'm a huge hater of Obamacare, but even I have to admit you're spot-on. The Federal government agreed to pay for the Medicaid expansion, all the states had to do was accept the money. The Red states rejected the Federal money for emotional reasons, now they're stuck paying Federal tax money to cover Medicaid, which will be handed over only to the blue states. They're just transferring money from their states to the Democrat states (historically it's been the opposite). If I were running a state I'd obviously have fought Obamacare as much as I could. But once it passed and I couldn't stop it, I'd have tried to get as much out of it for my state as I could.
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08-12-2013, 11:33 AM (This post was last modified: 08-12-2013 11:40 AM by frankksj.)
RE: Mininum Wage Protest
(08-12-2013 11:15 AM)Chas Wrote:  All legislation is coercive. It is always backed up with force.

While the statement is incorrect, it is huge progress that you made it, thank you. I have to ask, did you just accept this now? If you previously believed it, then why, on earth, have you, Cjlr, et al, kept insisting you guys aren't using force, or that you cannot comprehend the definitions of coercion and force?

Now, that you've come to terms with your belief that all government action MUST use force, I have the harder challenge of proving that this is wrong...

Remember, I previously said the better system of taxation is a property tax--not an income tax. No force is needed for property taxes, since the payment is in exchange for necessary services (ie the county registers your deed and the police defend your property). As the property owner, you NEED the governments' services, namely to enforce your property rights and not just let any squatter take over your home. You need the government to give you clear title in order to sell or transfer it. Thus property taxes ARE voluntarily entered into through a social contract. You need the government to defend your property rights, then you agree to pay X for the service.

Now look at your statement above. Aren't property taxes legislated, just like income taxes? Who has ever been arrested, tased, shot, or imprisoned for not paying property taxes? If you can't come up with even 1 name, then maybe you might ask yourself if it REALLY is necessary to use force for everything, or if there are not peaceful, non-violent alternatives.
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08-12-2013, 11:38 AM
RE: Mininum Wage Protest
(08-12-2013 11:14 AM)Chas Wrote:  It is voluntary in the sense that we can change it by agreeing to do so.

Chas, consider the absurdity of arguing that some action is done "voluntarily" simply because it's enforced by a majority vote. By that logic, the Jews in WWII "voluntarily" self-immolated because the Nazis were elected democratically and their eugenics laws were passed through a democratic process, which the Jews had a vote in.

That's absurd. The very definition of voluntary is that it be an INDIVIDUAL choice--not a group decision. Just look it up in the dictionary: "voluntary: done, made, brought about, undertaken, etc., of one's own accord or by free choice".

Link: Voluntariness is a legal and philosophical concept referring to a choice being made of a person's free will [not the group's free will], as opposed to being made as the result of coercion or duress [which is what you are defending]. Philosophies such as libertarianism and voluntaryism, as well as many legal systems, hold that a contract must be voluntarily agreed to by a party in order to be binding on that party. The social contract rests on the concept of the voluntary consent of the governed.
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08-12-2013, 11:44 AM
RE: Mininum Wage Protest
You can live on minimum wage without any issues. I don't see the protestors' points! Even McDonald's provides a "spending journal" for you to plan out how to spend your money! It's flawless! Just watch this video.

http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert...g-journall
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08-12-2013, 11:56 AM (This post was last modified: 08-12-2013 12:00 PM by Chas.)
RE: Mininum Wage Protest
(08-12-2013 11:38 AM)frankksj Wrote:  
(08-12-2013 11:14 AM)Chas Wrote:  It is voluntary in the sense that we can change it by agreeing to do so.

Chas, consider the absurdity of arguing that some action is done "voluntarily" simply because it's enforced by a majority vote. By that logic, the Jews in WWII "voluntarily" self-immolated because the Nazis were elected democratically and their eugenics laws were passed through a democratic process, which the Jews had a vote in.

That's absurd. The very definition of voluntary is that it be an INDIVIDUAL choice--not a group decision. Just look it up in the dictionary: "voluntary: done, made, brought about, undertaken, etc., of one's own accord or by free choice".

Link: Voluntariness is a legal and philosophical concept referring to a choice being made of a person's free will [not the group's free will], as opposed to being made as the result of coercion or duress [which is what you are defending]. Philosophies such as libertarianism and voluntaryism, as well as many legal systems, hold that a contract must be voluntarily agreed to by a party in order to be binding on that party. The social contract rests on the concept of the voluntary consent of the governed.

Dream on. This is why I say that libertarians have no practical solution to anything. What you are pushing is impossible.

And you know that. Otherwise, you would not have run away, you'd stay and change the system.

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08-12-2013, 01:36 PM
RE: Mininum Wage Protest
(08-12-2013 11:56 AM)Chas Wrote:  Dream on. This is why I say that libertarians have no practical solution to anything. What you are pushing is impossible.

I already gave one practical solution to remove the use of force from taxation. And it WORKS very well. As I've explained before, Switzerland is the one country that doesn't use force to collect taxes. In fact, many residents are given the choice of paying their tax bill in the form of an income tax, or in the form of a property tax (based on 5x the market value of their primary residence). Here's a real-world example of removing force. And it works amazingly well. They have very high tax compliance, and the Swiss are always rated at the very top in terms of satisfaction with government.

So, yes, there are practical solutions, and they DO work in the real world. However, it requires a fundamental mind shift because all creatures are born with the instinct to use force to get what they want.

(08-12-2013 11:56 AM)Chas Wrote:  And you know that. Otherwise, you would not have run away, you'd stay and change the system.

Look, I've tried, as shown in these forums, to convince you guys that there are peaceful, voluntary solutions to our problems. And you're right, I failed miserably and was unable to "change the system". So I emigrated to a libertarian paradise where people live longer, healthier and more prosperous lives. Perhaps if I were more ideological I would have tried to stay and keep pounding into your liberals' heads that peace is an option. But the pragmatic side of me accepted that it's not in my power to change the system, so the best I can do is relocate to a system that works the way I want. If you think I have the power to change the system, then you have more confidence in my abilities than I do.
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08-12-2013, 02:11 PM
RE: Mininum Wage Protest
(08-12-2013 01:36 PM)frankksj Wrote:  As I've explained before, Switzerland is the one country that doesn't use force to collect taxes.

Yeah. That's not true.

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08-12-2013, 02:54 PM
RE: Mininum Wage Protest
(08-12-2013 02:11 PM)cjlr Wrote:  Yeah. That's not true.

We went round and round about this months ago and I presented mountains of irrefutable data, and you provided nothing but an "I said so", and eventually you backed down since there was ZERO evidence to support your claim. Now we're back at square 1, and YET AGAIN I need to try to pound this through that thick skull of yours:

Switzerland tax law: In the case of tax evasion, the tax payer "omits" to declare something, for instance by incorrectly or partially completing their tax return. In contrast to most countries, Switzerland does not regard this behaviour as a criminal offence.

Our lasts go around I provided you links to the Swiss government's own site, tons of media reports, and showed you that if you google "tax evasion is not a crime in switzerland" there are over 2 million links substantiating this.

There are thousands of people in Switzerland who don't even file any income tax returns, like Michael Schumacher, Phil Collins, Tina Turner, Ingvar Kamprad (Ikea), etc. They opt to instead pay a property tax based on the value of their home.

Now it's your turn.

Q:Give me the name or a link to one person who is has been arrested, imprisoned, or otherwise suffered violence for refusing to pay taxes (not for fraud)

Check.

Of course, you're trapped, and you won't be able to answer. You can't move since you have ZERO facts to support your position. You're just fabricating claims that you can never substantiate.

How can you possibly be a physicist and live in such denial?
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08-12-2013, 03:17 PM
RE: Mininum Wage Protest
(08-12-2013 02:54 PM)frankksj Wrote:  Switzerland tax law: In the case of tax evasion, the tax payer "omits" to declare something, for instance by incorrectly or partially completing their tax return. In contrast to most countries, Switzerland does not regard this behaviour as a criminal offence.

Indeed. There is a distinction between tax evasion - a misdemeanour - and tax fraud - a criminal offense. The sane observer may note that I have not said otherwise.

It does not follow that enforcement does not involve "force", which is what you claimed previously.

(08-12-2013 02:54 PM)frankksj Wrote:  Our lasts go around I provided you links to the Swiss government's own site, tons of media reports, and showed you that if you google "tax evasion is not a crime in switzerland" there are over 2 million links substantiating this.

"Tax evasion is not a crime" is true under Swiss law. It is a misdemeanour. It is furthermore not what you just claimed. So there's that.

Please try to keep track of your own claims. You would appear much saner.

(08-12-2013 02:54 PM)frankksj Wrote:  There are thousands of people in Switzerland who don't even file any income tax returns, like Michael Schumacher, Phil Collins, Tina Turner, Ingvar Kamprad (Ikea), etc. They opt to instead pay a property tax based on the value of their home.

Indeed - income tax is not mandatory in Switzerland. The sane observer may not that I have not said otherwise. As you literally just said, however, they are still paying taxes. What would happen if they did not pay any taxes at all?

It does not follow that enforcement does not involve "force", which is what you claimed previously.

(08-12-2013 02:54 PM)frankksj Wrote:  Q:Give me the name or a link to one person who is has been arrested, imprisoned, or otherwise suffered violence for refusing to pay taxes (not for fraud)

Indeed - tax evasion is not the same as tax fraud.

It does not follow that enforcement does not involve "force", which is what you claimed previously.

(08-12-2013 02:54 PM)frankksj Wrote:  Check.

And if you just hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominoes will fall like a house of cards.

(08-12-2013 02:54 PM)frankksj Wrote:  Of course, you're trapped, and you won't be able to answer. You can't move since you have ZERO facts to support your position. You're just fabricating claims that you can never substantiate.

You made a claim. I questioned it. You attested a different claim.

A: X is true!
B: X is not true.
A: Y is so true!

"Logic". Yeah.

Try withholding payment of VAT next time you're in a Swiss store, and let me know how far that gets you.

(08-12-2013 02:54 PM)frankksj Wrote:  How can you possibly be a physicist and live in such denial?

"Denial", huh?

Making shit up and convincing yourself that other people have said it is a very special kind of denial indeed.

Perhaps you should try to do less of that.

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