Mininum Wage Protest
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
08-12-2013, 03:23 PM
RE: Mininum Wage Protest
(08-12-2013 02:54 PM)frankksj Wrote:  
(08-12-2013 02:11 PM)cjlr Wrote:  Yeah. That's not true.

We went round and round about this months ago and I presented mountains of irrefutable data, and you provided nothing but an "I said so", and eventually you backed down since there was ZERO evidence to support your claim. Now we're back at square 1, and YET AGAIN I need to try to pound this through that thick skull of yours:

Switzerland tax law: In the case of tax evasion, the tax payer "omits" to declare something, for instance by incorrectly or partially completing their tax return. In contrast to most countries, Switzerland does not regard this behaviour as a criminal offence.

Our lasts go around I provided you links to the Swiss government's own site, tons of media reports, and showed you that if you google "tax evasion is not a crime in switzerland" there are over 2 million links substantiating this.

There are thousands of people in Switzerland who don't even file any income tax returns, like Michael Schumacher, Phil Collins, Tina Turner, Ingvar Kamprad (Ikea), etc. They opt to instead pay a property tax based on the value of their home.

Now it's your turn.

Q:Give me the name or a link to one person who is has been arrested, imprisoned, or otherwise suffered violence for refusing to pay taxes (not for fraud)

Check.

Of course, you're trapped, and you won't be able to answer. You can't move since you have ZERO facts to support your position. You're just fabricating claims that you can never substantiate.

How can you possibly be a physicist and live in such denial?

It is a misdemeanor to fail to pay taxes and is punishable by fines, as much as 300% of the tax. That's coercion. Your particular definition of 'violence' doesn't extend to that. OK, fine.

It is still illegal, it is still punished. People are coerced into doing something they may not wish to do.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
[Image: flagstiny%206.gif]
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
08-12-2013, 03:42 PM
RE: Mininum Wage Protest
@Cjlr, we've already gone over the definition of 'force', and I've clarified many times I am referring to 'physical force' and linked many times to the dictionary and other sources explaining that 'physical force' means 'matter contacting matter', such as bullet to the head, a handcuff on the wrists, a taser to the chest, a fist to the face. It doesn't say much if you're a physicist who cannot get his head around the idea of physical force.

So my claim was, yet again, “Switzerland is the one country that doesn't use [physical] force to collect taxes.” Your response was “Yeah. That's not true”. You've again doubled-down claiming “It does not follow that enforcement does not involve [physical] 'force'” So, yet again, I will ask you to give me one name, one link, to anybody in Switzerland who has experienced 'matter contacting matter' force for refusing to pay taxes?

In answer to your question “What would happen if they did not pay any taxes at all?”, please listen because I'm tired of repeating it... They put a lien on your property. Got it. That's not physical force. It's not violence. And it's a peaceful, voluntary transaction because you are asking the government to provide a service, to protect your property rights and certify clear title to transfer property, and the government will not provide that service if you do not pay them for it. That is a libertarian-approved voluntary transaction between consenting adults. It is radically different than your proposed system of "Surrender to me all the fruits of your labor, and disclose to me every detail about every transaction you have everywhere in the world, and if you do not fully comply I will haul you off at gunpoint, and if you resist, I will shoot you." In your system, there is no voluntary consent.

I've explained this a million times, and it just doesn't sink in. You liberals are SO convinced that no matter what the top, violence is the only solution, so you cannot even comprehend a non-violent solution. But, there is no matter on matter with a lien. No physical force. Seriously, you need to ask your physics professor for a refund if you cannot get your head around that.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
08-12-2013, 03:44 PM
RE: Mininum Wage Protest
(08-12-2013 03:23 PM)Chas Wrote:  It is a misdemeanor to fail to pay taxes and is punishable by fines, as much as 300% of the tax. That's coercion. Your particular definition of 'violence' doesn't extend to that. OK, fine.

It is still illegal, it is still punished. People are coerced into doing something they may not wish to do.

Thank you Chas. Yes, that is an accurate statement (although it's not "my" definition of violence, it's in the dictionary). Regardless, this concession does prove that there are ways to get people to do things without the use of "violence".
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
08-12-2013, 04:22 PM
RE: Mininum Wage Protest
(08-12-2013 03:42 PM)frankksj Wrote:  @Cjlr, we've already gone over the definition of 'force', and I've clarified many times I am referring to 'physical force' and linked many times to the dictionary and other sources explaining that 'physical force' means 'matter contacting matter', such as bullet to the head, a handcuff on the wrists, a taser to the chest, a fist to the face. It doesn't say much if you're a physicist who cannot get his head around the idea of physical force.

Your definition is incredibly shallow and insufficient, as has been pointed out to you numerous times.

"Matter contacting matter" is physically incoherent. It is not meaningful. You cannot define matter. You cannot define contact. Go ahead and try, though. I could use a laugh.

You are, once again, dressing up your own inadequately precise gut feeling as if it were a self-evident truth.

(08-12-2013 03:42 PM)frankksj Wrote:  So my claim was, yet again, “Switzerland is the one country that doesn't use [physical] force to collect taxes.” Your response was “Yeah. That's not true”. You've again doubled-down claiming “It does not follow that enforcement does not involve [physical] 'force'”

I, charitably, might interpret that statement in two ways.
A) Switzerland never uses force to collect taxes. This is patently untrue.
B) Switzerland does not always use force to collect taxes. This is true. It is in no way unique to Switzerland.

If "physical" (lol meaningless qualifier) force is used under any circumstances to collect taxes, your statement cannot admit of the first interpretation.

(08-12-2013 03:42 PM)frankksj Wrote:  So, yet again, I will ask you to give me one name, one link, to anybody in Switzerland who has experienced 'matter contacting matter' force for refusing to pay taxes?

You don't seem to understand how this works. You made the claim, you substantiate it. That's called "burden of proof".

(08-12-2013 03:42 PM)frankksj Wrote:  In answer to your question “What would happen if they did not pay any taxes at all?”, please listen because I'm tired of repeating it... They put a lien on your property. Got it. That's not physical force. It's not violence.

It's an imposed legal obligation.

What happens if you refuse to comply with the terms of the lien?

(spoiler warning: there are consequences)

(08-12-2013 03:42 PM)frankksj Wrote:  And it's a peaceful, voluntary transaction because you are asking the government to provide a service, to protect your property rights and certify clear title to transfer property, and the government will not provide that service if you do not pay them for it.

I think you'll find social contract theory is the operational basis for all modern states.

(08-12-2013 03:42 PM)frankksj Wrote:  That is a libertarian-approved voluntary transaction between consenting adults. It is radically different than your proposed system of "Surrender to me all the fruits of your labor, and disclose to me every detail about every transaction you have everywhere in the world, and if you do not fully comply I will haul you off at gunpoint, and if you resist, I will shoot you." In your system, there is no voluntary consent.

I have said none of those things.

Your delusions are not germane.

But I do marvel at the cavernous ass whence you repeatedly and unfailingly pull such statements.

(08-12-2013 03:42 PM)frankksj Wrote:  I've explained this a million times, and it just doesn't sink in. You liberals are SO convinced that no matter what the top, violence is the only solution, so you cannot even comprehend a non-violent solution. But, there is no matter on matter with a lien. No physical force.

Whoa there, champ. I'll ask again: what means exist to ensure compliance with the conditions of the lien?

(protip: it's not none)

(08-12-2013 03:42 PM)frankksj Wrote:  Seriously, you need to ask your physics professor for a refund if you cannot get your head around that.

I think you'll find most intelligent and educated people will fail to get their heads around the incoherent figments you espouse.

I might consider redress if, indeed, it proves my physics education has left me lacking in knowledge of physics. Since what you know of physics can be summarized on the back of a dirty napkin, I'll defer to more trustworthy opinions on that front.

... this is my signature!
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes cjlr's post
08-12-2013, 04:32 PM
RE: Mininum Wage Protest
(08-12-2013 03:42 PM)frankksj Wrote:  In answer to your question “What would happen if they did not pay any taxes at all?”, please listen because I'm tired of repeating it... They put a lien on your property. Got it. That's not physical force. It's not violence.

Um…Frank….yeah, dude. Not true. If you don't pay your taxes, not ONLY will they put a lien on your property, if you own any, but punishment can include, but not be limited to, prison. Its a crime. Its called tax evasion.

http://www.taxattorneydaily.com/topics/c...crimes.php

Now, it is unlikely that you will get convicted of tax evasion, but its not outside of the realm of possibility. And throwing your ass in jail is a form of physical force as you've described, specifically, handcuffs.

A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day - Bill Watterson
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
08-12-2013, 04:36 PM
RE: Mininum Wage Protest
(08-12-2013 04:32 PM)Cathym112 Wrote:  
(08-12-2013 03:42 PM)frankksj Wrote:  In answer to your question “What would happen if they did not pay any taxes at all?”, please listen because I'm tired of repeating it... They put a lien on your property. Got it. That's not physical force. It's not violence.

Um…Frank….yeah, dude. Not true. If you don't pay your taxes, not ONLY will they put a lien on your property, if you own any, but punishment can include, but not be limited to, prison. Its a crime. Its called tax evasion.

http://www.taxattorneydaily.com/topics/c...crimes.php

Now, it is unlikely that you will get convicted of tax evasion, but its not outside of the realm of possibility. And throwing your ass in jail is a form of physical force as you've described, specifically, handcuffs.

Cathy, sorry, you're wrong. That link is about the US system--not the Swiss system.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
08-12-2013, 04:36 PM
RE: Mininum Wage Protest
Frank - I've read many of your posts. Now, as someone with an advanced degree in economics, I'm really sorry to tell you, pal…you have a very poor grasp of it.

Maybe auditing a few global economics, international trade theory, macroeconomics, and economies of utility courses might help you man. yikes.

A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day - Bill Watterson
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
08-12-2013, 04:40 PM
RE: Mininum Wage Protest
(08-12-2013 04:36 PM)frankksj Wrote:  
(08-12-2013 04:32 PM)Cathym112 Wrote:  Um…Frank….yeah, dude. Not true. If you don't pay your taxes, not ONLY will they put a lien on your property, if you own any, but punishment can include, but not be limited to, prison. Its a crime. Its called tax evasion.

http://www.taxattorneydaily.com/topics/c...crimes.php

Now, it is unlikely that you will get convicted of tax evasion, but its not outside of the realm of possibility. And throwing your ass in jail is a form of physical force as you've described, specifically, handcuffs.

Cathy, sorry, you're wrong. That link is about the US system--not the Swiss system.


my mistake. I thought you were talking about the US system mainly with a few references to the Swiss. The 10 or so pages of this thread have indicated that they are both referenced.

A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day - Bill Watterson
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
08-12-2013, 04:59 PM
RE: Mininum Wage Protest
(08-12-2013 04:22 PM)cjlr Wrote:  You cannot define matter.

Guess I must have superhuman powers to be able to go to the dictionary.

Matter: the substance or substances of which any physical object consists or is composed

Got that. Physical object. Like a handcuff, a bullet, etc. A “lien” is not a physical object. Yes, to those of us who know to use a dictionary, it is easy to define.

(08-12-2013 04:22 PM)cjlr Wrote:  You cannot define contact. Go ahead and try, though. I could use a laugh.

Brace yourself for another dazzling display of superhuman talent:

Contact: the act or state of touching; a touching or meeting, as of two things or people.

So, physical object (bullet, handcuff, etc.), touches you, that's physical contact. Seriously, somebody should punch you in the face, then when you tell the DA you've been assaulted, he should just say the definition of “physical contact” is too vague.

(08-12-2013 04:22 PM)cjlr Wrote:  I, charitably, might interpret that statement in two ways.
A) Switzerland never uses force to collect taxes. This is patently untrue.
B) Switzerland does not always use force to collect taxes. This is true. It is in no way unique to Switzerland.
If "physical" (lol meaningless qualifier) force is used under any circumstances to collect taxes, your statement cannot admit of the first interpretation.

Of course it can. My statement in your own words is:

“Switzerland never uses physically force to collect taxes.”

(08-12-2013 04:22 PM)cjlr Wrote:  You don't seem to understand how this works. You made the claim, you substantiate it. That's called "burden of proof".

Sorry, you don't seem to understand how things work in science. Look up Evidence of absence.

It's impossible to prove a negative. I cannot prove that Switzerland never used physical force to collect taxes, because I'm not omnipotent. When I make the claim, and you insist it's a lie, the only way to resolve it is for you to name one instance when Switzerland did use physical force to collect taxes. Since you cannot come up with even one name or one instance, my claim remains valid. The burden of proof is on you. I'm still waiting for the name of one person who Switzerland used physical force against to collect taxes. Waiting, waiting.....

(08-12-2013 04:22 PM)cjlr Wrote:  What happens if you refuse to comply with the terms of the lien?
(spoiler warning: there are consequences)

Well, you tell me. What happens? Can you give me one example to where physical force was used? Has anybody been put in jail for it? One name, please.

(08-12-2013 04:22 PM)cjlr Wrote:  I think you'll find social contract theory is the operational basis for all modern states.

But you don't even know what social contract theory is. Look it up

Right there in black and white. It involves VOLUNTARY consent. So I am using social contract theory correctly, because I respect the voluntary nature. You're just so intent on justifying your insatiable need to use violence that you're using the term without even understanding what it means.

(08-12-2013 04:22 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(08-12-2013 03:42 PM)frankksj Wrote:  That is a libertarian-approved voluntary transaction between consenting adults. It is radically different than your proposed system of "Surrender to me all the fruits of your labor, and disclose to me every detail about every transaction you have everywhere in the world, and if you do not fully comply I will haul you off at gunpoint, and if you resist, I will shoot you." In your system, there is no voluntary consent.

I have said none of those things.

Your delusions are not germane.

But I do marvel at the cavernous ass whence you repeatedly and unfailingly pull such statements.

Well, let's see Cjlr whether yet again I know what you think even before you do... Here's a few more questions to run from:

Q: What do you propose happens to me if I refuse to surrender the fruits of my labor, say I perform some work, get paid, and refuse to hand over to the government the portion it claims for itself (ie the tax)?

Q: What if I'm living in Hong Kong and secretly engage in business which I do not disclose to the IRS?

Q: If I do either of those things, and refuse to comply despite any and all attempts at 'non-violent persuasion', how should it end? Should I be arrested? And if so, what should happen to me if I resist arrest?

Go run from those questions, like always.

(08-12-2013 04:22 PM)cjlr Wrote:  Whoa there, champ. I'll ask again: what means exist to ensure compliance with the conditions of the lien?

Simple. You don't get title and cannot transfer the property to a buyer or an heir without paying the lien including interest. You seriously don't know how this works? Nobody is sitting in jail in Switzerland for refusing to pay taxes. Give me one name if you dispute this.

(08-12-2013 04:22 PM)cjlr Wrote:  I might consider redress if, indeed, it proves my physics education has left me lacking in knowledge of physics. Since what you know of physics can be summarized on the back of a dirty napkin, I'll defer to more trustworthy opinions on that front.

Well, let's see what happened the last time we debated physics. I had claimed that we should logic and axioms to understand economics. Some liberals rejected this notion. I said that Einstein used logic and axioms to understand physics and to learn things that were not revealed by empirical data alone. You said my claim was wrong. But then after arguing back and forth, you DID concede that Einstein used logic and axioms. So, even on the subject of physics, your supposed specialty, you still got smacked down.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
08-12-2013, 05:02 PM
RE: Mininum Wage Protest
(08-12-2013 04:36 PM)Cathym112 Wrote:  Frank - I've read many of your posts. Now, as someone with an advanced degree in economics, I'm really sorry to tell you, pal…you have a very poor grasp of it.

Well, let me ask your opinion then... When you look at a chart of the US's historic gini coefficient, it's a V with the bottom right around 1971. For the decades before that, no matter which party was in power, the poor and middle class got stronger and stronger. Then it suddenly reversed course and ever since then the income and wealth has been growing no matter which party was in in power.

What do you think caused this reversal?
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: