Mininum Wage Protest
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09-12-2013, 04:01 PM
RE: Mininum Wage Protest
(09-12-2013 03:57 PM)frankksj Wrote:  
(09-12-2013 09:35 AM)cjlr Wrote:  How are the provisions of a lien enforced, buddy?

As a PS, even _IF_ one jurisdiction passed a law that stated "everybody who buys a house here after 1/1/14 and doesn't pay his property taxes, he will be shot on site."

Then in that case, sure, violence would be used to enforce property taxes. BUT, as I've said a million times, I'm not fighting against using violence to enforce voluntary contracts because all parties are willingly agreeing to subject themselves to the enforcement in the contract. If you buy a house in that hypothetical jurisdiction with full disclosure that you'll be shot if you refuse to pay property taxes, then simply don't buy the house if you're not willing to be subjected to that violence. You can always rent. Nobody is forcing you.

So, when you buy a house, you ARE voluntarily signing a contract agreeing to certain things, and agreeing to subject yourself to whatever enforcement measures are stipulated in the contract.

That's a VERY different situation than if, for example, one group of voters (51%) orders another group to do something (the 49%), or else face violence, and provides the latter no means to relocate or escape the violence. In this case, there is no voluntary consent. It's an entirely different concept.

All of which has nothing to do with how the provisions of Swiss law are enforced, so good job. Masterful evasion!

(09-12-2013 03:57 PM)frankksj Wrote:  I think our debating is hopeless because you cannot accept that there is a difference between a voluntary contract vs. an involuntary one.

Rolleyes

Citation needed on that, friendo.

You are chronically disconnected from reality.

... this is my signature!
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09-12-2013, 04:01 PM
RE: Mininum Wage Protest
(09-12-2013 03:18 PM)Question Wrote:  
(09-12-2013 03:16 PM)Cathym112 Wrote:  please. By all means. Don't be shy!
First day in my economics class - my professor told me, "Yeah, if they did increase minimum wage, jobs would lay off the teenagers first. But prices for consumer goods can still go up, so it doesn't guarantee that things would instantly get better."


They are pretty much accurate. This is the only thing you have to understand about economics. There is no such thing as a free lunch.

People like to think of the economy in terms of the big giant corporations. Walmart, Target, and whatnot. The reality is, is that although they have a big impact, they do not represent the entire service economy. While Walmart can afford almost a $7 increase; smaller businesses cannot. They will have to let go of their employees to compensate. IF they can't lay off, they will increase their prices to compensate.

Now goods and services are more expensive as they increase slightly behind wages. So those minimum wage workers are finding no more buying power with their increased salary because the costs of goods and services have gone up.

Here is what pisses me off because no one really focuses on it; You get more from your full time job than just your hourly salary. You get benefits. And those benefits didn't appear on a fart, your employer pays those benefits, with an employee covering no more than 10% of HOUSEHOLD income taken out to help cover those costs. So yes, that employee might be only bringing home $30,000 a year in wages, but they have total compensation of $60,000 when you include their health insurance.

I run my own business. I provide my employees with health insurance. Do you know how much out of my business goes to paying health insurance? $1,200 a month/person. $1,200!!!!!!!!! If I have 50 employees, thats $720,000 per year in health insurance. Does that money just appear out of my asshole? No! And thats just health insurance. I would need more than $3,000,000 in revenue a year just to keep the lights on, pay salaries, and keep a roof over the business's head. How much money do you think the average business pulls in? Imagine if I had a landscaping business with 30 or so employees….I mean, FFS!

A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day - Bill Watterson
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09-12-2013, 10:09 PM
RE: Mininum Wage Protest
(09-12-2013 02:56 PM)Cathym112 Wrote:  here in an interesting Criticism on Austrian Economics from Bryan Caplan of GM University.

Guess those 2 youtube videos left you speechless. Smile Either that, or you dismiss Austrian economics as quackery without even giving it a chance.

Also, since you won't my question about 1971, here's one that's a lot more current:

Q: When the central bank eases monetary policy (ie QE, or 'money printing') during an economic downturn when unemployment is high, according to Keynesian models, is this supposed to increase employment?

Q: Since the downturn in 2008, has the central bank done more QE than ever before since the US dollar went fiat in 1971?

Q: Has the result supported or contradicted the Keynesian models?

Q: Do you agree with the comments posted here:

"Even today, 4½ years after the economy touched bottom, 1.3 million fewer people are working than in 2007 [6 years ago].... After the severe recession of 1974-75, then the worst since World War II, it took only 10 months for the total number of people employed to recover to the pre-recession peak. In no recession between 1945 and 1990 did it ever take longer than 11 months to put everybody back to work. Since 1990, however, job recovery after recessions has proceeded much more slowly. It took fully 21 months for employment fully to recover from the recession of 1990-91, 18 months for employment fully to recover from the recession of 2001-2002. Today, that's our new reality: a slump deeper than anything seen since World War II and a pace of employment recovery slower than anything seen since World War II -- and all with another recession slowly coming due."

You're also welcome to debate the points I made in my Economic recovery: you're doing it wrong post. And, btw, Austrians have been telling Keynesians all along their models on monetary policy vs. employment are wrong and that the current monetary policy is actually making things worse.
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10-12-2013, 03:25 AM
RE: Mininum Wage Protest
It all depends on where your from. I know in some states minimum wage can actually pay bills. In southern California it doesnt even cover rent in most cities. And you cant always work your way out of it some times life likes to take a shit on you and you have no choice but to work with what you can get. I dont think its right to force someone to work full time and in most cases more than full time and not even be able to live in a house.
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10-12-2013, 05:20 AM
RE: Mininum Wage Protest
(10-12-2013 03:25 AM)Donel Wrote:  It all depends on where your from. I know in some states minimum wage can actually pay bills. In southern California it doesnt even cover rent in most cities. And you cant always work your way out of it some times life likes to take a shit on you and you have no choice but to work with what you can get. I dont think its right to force someone to work full time and in most cases more than full time and not even be able to live in a house.

Whats with the forcing to work full time?

You have to work to support the lifestyle YOU choose, no one is forcing you to move out of your parents house (except maybe your parents Tongue) no one is forcing you to have kids, no one is forcing you to smoke or drink alcohol.

You choose your lifestyle, and if you have to work full time to achieve it, then you have to work full time.. YOU are forcing yourself to do what you need to do.
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10-12-2013, 06:38 AM
RE: Mininum Wage Protest
(09-12-2013 10:09 PM)frankksj Wrote:  
(09-12-2013 02:56 PM)Cathym112 Wrote:  here in an interesting Criticism on Austrian Economics from Bryan Caplan of GM University.

Guess those 2 youtube videos left you speechless. Smile Either that, or you dismiss Austrian economics as quackery without even giving it a chance.

Also, since you won't my question about 1971, here's one that's a lot more current:

Q: When the central bank eases monetary policy (ie QE, or 'money printing') during an economic downturn when unemployment is high, according to Keynesian models, is this supposed to increase employment?

Q: Since the downturn in 2008, has the central bank done more QE than ever before since the US dollar went fiat in 1971?

Q: Has the result supported or contradicted the Keynesian models?

Q: Do you agree with the comments posted here:

"Even today, 4½ years after the economy touched bottom, 1.3 million fewer people are working than in 2007 [6 years ago].... After the severe recession of 1974-75, then the worst since World War II, it took only 10 months for the total number of people employed to recover to the pre-recession peak. In no recession between 1945 and 1990 did it ever take longer than 11 months to put everybody back to work. Since 1990, however, job recovery after recessions has proceeded much more slowly. It took fully 21 months for employment fully to recover from the recession of 1990-91, 18 months for employment fully to recover from the recession of 2001-2002. Today, that's our new reality: a slump deeper than anything seen since World War II and a pace of employment recovery slower than anything seen since World War II -- and all with another recession slowly coming due."

You're also welcome to debate the points I made in my Economic recovery: you're doing it wrong post. And, btw, Austrians have been telling Keynesians all along their models on monetary policy vs. employment are wrong and that the current monetary policy is actually making things worse.

Frank - I'm not speechless. I just don't have the kinda time to waste participating in this virtual dodge ball game. I run a business. I can't keep arguing with the heaping pile of composition fallacies for hours on end.

A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day - Bill Watterson
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10-12-2013, 02:05 PM
RE: Mininum Wage Protest
(10-12-2013 05:20 AM)PursuingTruth Wrote:  
(10-12-2013 03:25 AM)Donel Wrote:  It all depends on where your from. I know in some states minimum wage can actually pay bills. In southern California it doesnt even cover rent in most cities. And you cant always work your way out of it some times life likes to take a shit on you and you have no choice but to work with what you can get. I dont think its right to force someone to work full time and in most cases more than full time and not even be able to live in a house.

Whats with the forcing to work full time?

You have to work to support the lifestyle YOU choose, no one is forcing you to move out of your parents house (except maybe your parents Tongue) no one is forcing you to have kids, no one is forcing you to smoke or drink alcohol.

You choose your lifestyle, and if you have to work full time to achieve it, then you have to work full time.. YOU are forcing yourself to do what you need to do.

I guess i could have worded that better i meant it sucks that in some places you have to work full time or more and you dont even make enough money to live. Theres nothing wrong with working full time.
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