Mininum Wage Protest
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05-12-2013, 09:04 AM
RE: Mininum Wage Protest
The people protesting are working towards their own inevitable unemployment. What happens if McDs cedes and gives the people what they want, where will the money come from? Surely the executives aren't suddenly going to reduce their pay, maybe a re-org and cut out some of the middle management. But in the end it will likely mean they would have to raise their prices. And what does it mean when people can no longer buy that double cheeseburger for a dollar? They go somewhere else where they can get it for that price. So now McDs has less customers to serve, so they don't need as many minimum wage workers. So the protesters are now all fired and living off the government because they have no skills to go anywhere else.

Do I think it's fair that there is such a gap how much executives make versus what the hourly employees make? No I don't. I think it sucks. But how can you gripe about that on the one hand, then worship people like Lebron James (or almost any other "athlete") on the other, he makes millions every year, but how many workers does he employ? So CEOs are evil, but the guy playing a game on my TV, well he's a hero!

But what these protesters fail to fight against is the bigger issue, why can they no longer get by on what they make. It's not McDs fault that a gallon of gas that used to cost $.99 is now $3.00. It's not McDs fault that the apartment they are living in used to cost $250 a month, but now expect $625 when they have made no improvements other than changing the sign at the entrance and the color of paint on the buildings (if they even do that much).

The cost of everything is higher now. But who would ever step up and say, "Hey I'm making too much. I should take a pay cut." Sure you have the rogue CEO every now and then like Iacocca, but most people when they ascend to that pinnacle are just going to appreciate what they have, well except they would really like that bonus and at least another 20% increase next year.

Additionally, it's the politicians we are putting into power that have abandoned our neighborhoods. Our cities are funneling money into pork projects instead of putting it towards services (schools, law enforcement and other emergency services, DOT). And why is that? Well sure you vote for me, and I appreciate that, but this neighborhood of doctors and lawyers over here put millions of dollars in my pocket. So their needs come first.

The entire system is screwed. People keep buying into the same promises politicians make, and we keep getting the same results. Consider the Affordable Care Act, sure it's great that more people can try to get insurance now. But it does nothing to improve the cost of health care. Office visits and medications are still grossly over-priced. All ACA does is get the government a piece of the pie instead of an insurance company.

Well that's enough for this rant. Feel free to shred my argument I've been working since I was 14 (27 years now), so I'm used to getting treated like crap.

RELIGION, n. A daughter of Hope and Fear, explaining to Ignorance the nature of the Unknowable. - Ambrose Bierce (The Devil's Dictionary)
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05-12-2013, 09:13 AM (This post was last modified: 05-12-2013 09:19 AM by Brian37.)
RE: Mininum Wage Protest
Quote:There is no skill involved, no educational requirement

Easy to learn does not mean lack of skill. Every job requires skill, low pay does not mean no skill.

I have to communicate with the cooks and the waitresses. You have to keep them supplied with what they need otherwise that customer gets their food delayed. You have to priorities and quite often juggle lots of things at once.

"No educational requirement" again bullshit. Why the fuck would you not want everyone to have the highest education they can? Japan and Germany also have what you call "low skill" jobs too. But I bet on average their poor kick our poor's ass in academics AND their wage gap is much lower. And funny how they also have lower crime rates, higher graduation rates, and virtually no homelessness.

I don't care if your job is scrubbing toilets, if it fills a need, and it is something you are not willing to do to, then don't complain.

Do others deserve to make more than me? OF COURSE! But this is not about that. 57 TRILLION GDP, and an average of a 300 to 1 CEO to worker gap and 45 million people living below the poverty line. It is shear madness to think that is sustainable.

Demonizing the poor and treating poverty as a capital crime doesn't solve shit.

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05-12-2013, 09:27 AM
RE: Mininum Wage Protest
Quote:The people protesting are working towards their own inevitable unemployment. What happens if McDs cedes and gives the people what they want, where will the money come from? Surely the executives aren't suddenly going to reduce their pay, maybe a re-org and cut out some of the middle management. But in the end it will likely mean they would have to raise their prices. And what does it mean when people can no longer buy that double cheeseburger for a dollar? They go somewhere else where they can get it for that price. So now McDs has less customers to serve, so they don't need as man

Oh yea, certainly that has happened and would not shock me if it did. But that does not equal morality, that is simply greed and blackmail.

They don't have to raise prices, nor do they have to cut jobs. These corporate fuckers have it within themselves to do the right thing, there is a difference between "cant " and "don't want to". But it is bullshit to say they cant pay more when COSTCO and Moo Cluck Moo an Trader Joes and billionaires like Nick Hanour have the right mentality, "MORE MONEY IN WORKERS HANDS IS A WIN WIN FOR EVERYONE".

Sorry, "if workers do this, then they will do that" NO SHIT, but that doesn't make it moral nor does it mean we have to put up with that blackmail mentality.

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05-12-2013, 09:29 AM
RE: Mininum Wage Protest
Some people are arguing for $15 an hour for minimum wage, most people feel that is high, personally I think they are going after such a high amount to compromise at a lower number, I've seen $10.10 floated out there before and its reasonable.

It's not as easy to acquire the said skills to pay the bills as people seem to believe. In the US we have students who go to college and graduate but are then saddled with crushing debt in student loans and a lack of gainful employment opportunities, and they must take a job at K-Mart, Texaco or KFC. This is sadly becoming more and more common, as people are retiring later and later in life, and many jobs are being shipped over seas where greedy corporate assholes can exploit undereducated, impoverished communities as cheap labor for pennies on the dollar.

The K-12 education system is also in need of serious repairs in this country, everything is about college prep, which not everyone is interested or have the luxury to afford. If we could perhaps take K-8 and teach basic educational skills, then split the 9-12 into two groups, the college prep and the vocational school, then we will have students graduating High School ready to enter the work force and have skills other than flipping burgers or folding sweaters.

I'm afraid I've gone off on another subject, but they are related.
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05-12-2013, 09:35 AM
RE: Mininum Wage Protest
Quote:Some people are arguing for $15 an hour for minimum wage, most people feel that is high, personally I think they are going after such a high amount to compromise at a lower number, I've seen $10.10 floated out there before and its reasonable.

Where? I am single living in the sticks, if I made $10 bucks and got 40 hours a week I'd be fine. But that is a joke say in NYC even for a single person, much less someone with kids.

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05-12-2013, 09:46 AM
RE: Mininum Wage Protest
(05-12-2013 09:35 AM)Brian37 Wrote:  
Quote:Some people are arguing for $15 an hour for minimum wage, most people feel that is high, personally I think they are going after such a high amount to compromise at a lower number, I've seen $10.10 floated out there before and its reasonable.

Where? I am single living in the sticks, if I made $10 bucks and got 40 hours a week I'd be fine. But that is a joke say in NYC even for a single person, much less someone with kids.

That would be the national minimum wage, states and cities are free to set their own as they see fit. In Appalachia, $10.10 an hour, while not allowing you to live in the lap of luxury, will give some extra income to help pay the bills, buy food, etc.

When I first got out of the Air Force, I went to work at K-Mart and when talking to a friend in Washington state that I was making only $7.25 an hour, she thought K-Mart was doing something illegal and that minimum wage was much higher, because in Washington it is.
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05-12-2013, 10:17 AM
RE: Mininum Wage Protest
(05-12-2013 09:27 AM)Brian37 Wrote:  Oh yea, certainly that has happened and would not shock me if it did. But that does not equal morality, that is simply greed and blackmail.

They don't have to raise prices, nor do they have to cut jobs. These corporate fuckers have it within themselves to do the right thing, there is a difference between "cant " and "don't want to". But it is bullshit to say they cant pay more when COSTCO and Moo Cluck Moo an Trader Joes and billionaires like Nick Hanour have the right mentality, "MORE MONEY IN WORKERS HANDS IS A WIN WIN FOR EVERYONE".

Sorry, "if workers do this, then they will do that" NO SHIT, but that doesn't make it moral nor does it mean we have to put up with that blackmail mentality.

Also posted by WVAtheist - It's not as easy to acquire the said skills to pay the bills as people seem to believe. In the US we have students who go to college and graduate but are then saddled with crushing debt in student loans and a lack of gainful employment opportunities, and they must take a job at K-Mart, Texaco or KFC. This is sadly becoming more and more common, as people are retiring later and later in life, and many jobs are being shipped over seas where greedy corporate assholes can exploit undereducated, impoverished communities as cheap labor for pennies on the dollar.

Brian37 - your comment about money in the hands of the workers, this should be considered with taxation as well as with the pay check.

WVAtheist - In a round about way, my argument is that nothing is done about the problem of rising cost. Complaining that the degree someone just earned leaves them unemployed does nothing to address the fact that the cost of getting that degree is extremely exaggerated.

But if we could some how make further (voluntary) education more affordable, would that mean more people in school? If that were the case, wouldn't schools profit more from an increase in students versus the limited enrollment that can afford to attend now?

RELIGION, n. A daughter of Hope and Fear, explaining to Ignorance the nature of the Unknowable. - Ambrose Bierce (The Devil's Dictionary)
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05-12-2013, 10:24 AM
RE: Mininum Wage Protest
Quote:Brian37 - your comment about money in the hands of the workers, this should be considered with taxation as well as with the pay check.

The funny thing is that after WW2 we had higher taxes on the rich, more government project investment, dirt cheap higher education. So yea, corporate welfare needs to end as much as wages need to go up.

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05-12-2013, 10:32 AM
RE: Mininum Wage Protest
(05-12-2013 08:48 AM)BnW Wrote:  Muffs - I understood your point. I wasn't trying to imply you begrudged him for his job.

Lost - how much do you think a Taco Bell should pay people to sell $1 tacos? There is no skill involved, no educational requirement - what do you think that job should be paid? Oh, and many of the people who work there are in high school or are older and generally retired. Not all, but the vast majority of people I see working in those places (when I go into one - I hate fast food), are high school kids or older people supplementing their income. The managers aren't but they are paid a salary. So, how much should you pay them for having no skills?

I agree people need to earn a living wage. The way you do that is developing a skill for a job that pays one. I realize that we have a tough economy and I also realize that we have lost a lot of the types of jobs we used to have. So, you have to adjust. Get new skills. If you are 40 years old and working at McDonald's and can't afford to live in the salary you make, that is not McDonald's fault. It's your fault. Go get the skills required to get a better paying job. There is no shortage of programs out there to help with that.

Muffs is right - a larger part of the problem is a lack of personal accountability. It's not the entire problem, but for the people who are really at the bottom of the economic spectrum it is probably the biggest problem.

Final thought - when I was in high school I worked at a supermarket stocking shelves. It was tough work but it paid wellf or a high school student. There were people there in their 20s and 30s who had families, making not much more than I did, scraping by. None of them went to college, most of them dropped out of high school, and all of them had various levels of addiction problems with drugs or alcohol. So, who's fault was it they lived in squalor? Was it Pathmark's? Or, was it maybe their life choices that got them there?

Again I am not worried about whether or not you think people deserve to make more money. People will make more money they DO make more money. The problem is that you are paying it not their employer.
Not everyone has the same story and I realize that there are people who just don't want to work at bettering their life. There are people who think the world should just give them everything they want and need, but there are plenty of people like me too. I am not perfect but I am willing to admit my mistakes and I am trying to fix them. It is super frustrating how impossible it seems. How many hours are in a day? How many jobs can I get? College is ridiculously expensive. Children are also expensive. I made a bad choice by getting married at 17 and never finishing college back then. Now I am ready to work my ass off to make up for that to give my kids the life they deserve. Now, I am lucky to get child support from my ex-husband. Not everyone in my situation has that, but I hate being financially dependent on him. There aren't enough hours in the day to go to school full time and work enough hours to survive on minimum wage. So for now I am stuck depending on child support. I cannot wait to graduate college and get a decent job and stop child support and cut all ties with my exhusband.

I may have went off topic a little haha.
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05-12-2013, 10:56 AM
RE: Mininum Wage Protest
(05-12-2013 10:32 AM)LostandInsecure Wrote:  
(05-12-2013 08:48 AM)BnW Wrote:  Muffs - I understood your point. I wasn't trying to imply you begrudged him for his job.

Lost - how much do you think a Taco Bell should pay people to sell $1 tacos? There is no skill involved, no educational requirement - what do you think that job should be paid? Oh, and many of the people who work there are in high school or are older and generally retired. Not all, but the vast majority of people I see working in those places (when I go into one - I hate fast food), are high school kids or older people supplementing their income. The managers aren't but they are paid a salary. So, how much should you pay them for having no skills?

I agree people need to earn a living wage. The way you do that is developing a skill for a job that pays one. I realize that we have a tough economy and I also realize that we have lost a lot of the types of jobs we used to have. So, you have to adjust. Get new skills. If you are 40 years old and working at McDonald's and can't afford to live in the salary you make, that is not McDonald's fault. It's your fault. Go get the skills required to get a better paying job. There is no shortage of programs out there to help with that.

Muffs is right - a larger part of the problem is a lack of personal accountability. It's not the entire problem, but for the people who are really at the bottom of the economic spectrum it is probably the biggest problem.

Final thought - when I was in high school I worked at a supermarket stocking shelves. It was tough work but it paid wellf or a high school student. There were people there in their 20s and 30s who had families, making not much more than I did, scraping by. None of them went to college, most of them dropped out of high school, and all of them had various levels of addiction problems with drugs or alcohol. So, who's fault was it they lived in squalor? Was it Pathmark's? Or, was it maybe their life choices that got them there?

Again I am not worried about whether or not you think people deserve to make more money. People will make more money they DO make more money. The problem is that you are paying it not their employer.
Not everyone has the same story and I realize that there are people who just don't want to work at bettering their life. There are people who think the world should just give them everything they want and need, but there are plenty of people like me too. I am not perfect but I am willing to admit my mistakes and I am trying to fix them. It is super frustrating how impossible it seems. How many hours are in a day? How many jobs can I get? College is ridiculously expensive. Children are also expensive. I made a bad choice by getting married at 17 and never finishing college back then. Now I am ready to work my ass off to make up for that to give my kids the life they deserve. Now, I am lucky to get child support from my ex-husband. Not everyone in my situation has that, but I hate being financially dependent on him. There aren't enough hours in the day to go to school full time and work enough hours to survive on minimum wage. So for now I am stuck depending on child support. I cannot wait to graduate college and get a decent job and stop child support and cut all ties with my exhusband.

I may have went off topic a little haha.

"Decent job", every honest job that fills a societal need is a decent job. You want a higher paying job. That's fine, but that should not come at gutting our social safety net and lowering our standards.

Quote: There are people who think the world should just give them everything they want and need,

You mean like tax breaks the uber rich dont need? You mean like golden parachutes even when the CEO runs the company into the ground?

You mean like when the tax payers bail out big banks and housing industry because of the bubbles they create that fucked us over?

Since when in our species history has food been a luxury and not a necessity? You can't eat money.

Quote:There aren't enough hours in the day to go to school full time and work enough hours to survive on minimum wage.

BINGO!

But again, moving up is a ratio thing, at best we should want a lower middle class and no one living in abject poverty. Mobility has to exist and a little bit of inequality has to exist. I am fine with that. But low wages are hurting everyone, not just the poor.

I think it would be amazing to have a majority of A&B HS Grads and even a majority that have 2 and 4 year degrees, no matter what class they end up in.

You make the cost of living affordable for more people and the statement above will increase and our social problems such as crime and poverty and government dependency will decrease.

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