Mininum Wage Protest
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
05-12-2013, 01:51 PM (This post was last modified: 05-12-2013 01:54 PM by Chas.)
RE: Mininum Wage Protest
(05-12-2013 08:48 AM)BnW Wrote:  Muffs - I understood your point. I wasn't trying to imply you begrudged him for his job.

Lost - how much do you think a Taco Bell should pay people to sell $1 tacos? There is no skill involved, no educational requirement - what do you think that job should be paid? Oh, and many of the people who work there are in high school or are older and generally retired. Not all, but the vast majority of people I see working in those places (when I go into one - I hate fast food), are high school kids or older people supplementing their income. The managers aren't but they are paid a salary. So, how much should you pay them for having no skills?

I agree people need to earn a living wage. The way you do that is developing a skill for a job that pays one. I realize that we have a tough economy and I also realize that we have lost a lot of the types of jobs we used to have. So, you have to adjust. Get new skills. If you are 40 years old and working at McDonald's and can't afford to live in the salary you make, that is not McDonald's fault. It's your fault. Go get the skills required to get a better paying job. There is no shortage of programs out there to help with that.

Muffs is right - a larger part of the problem is a lack of personal accountability. It's not the entire problem, but for the people who are really at the bottom of the economic spectrum it is probably the biggest problem.

Final thought - when I was in high school I worked at a supermarket stocking shelves. It was tough work but it paid wellf or a high school student. There were people there in their 20s and 30s who had families, making not much more than I did, scraping by. None of them went to college, most of them dropped out of high school, and all of them had various levels of addiction problems with drugs or alcohol. So, who's fault was it they lived in squalor? Was it Pathmark's? Or, was it maybe their life choices that got them there?

Sorry, no.
If you are going to hire someone to do a job, then the job is worth a living wage.
Human dignity and respect demand that.
If you are not willing to pay a living wage for a job, then you are not showing any respect for a person's labor. All labor deserves respect.

And if your business can only survive by paying slave wages, maybe your business doesn't deserve to survive.
Or maybe you don't know how to manage a business and you shouldn't be doing it.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
[Image: flagstiny%206.gif]
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 6 users Like Chas's post
05-12-2013, 02:10 PM
RE: Mininum Wage Protest
(05-12-2013 01:51 PM)Chas Wrote:  Sorry, no.
If you are going to hire someone to do a job, then the job is worth a living wage.
Human dignity and respect demand that.
If you are not willing to pay a living wage for a job, then you are not showing any respect for a person's labor. All labor deserves respect. And if your business can only survive by paying slave wages, maybe your business doesn't deserve to survive.
Or maybe you don't know how to manage a business and you shouldn't be doing it.

Chas, it sure would be nice to put our vitriol behind us and have a civil, rational debate. Can we do that, please? I'll present a scenario and basic questions for you. And you're free to do the same and I promise to answer every question or challenge you present me head-on:

Scenario: A man owns a parking garage and has been paying my cashier $8/hour. Now the minimum wage goes up to $10/hour, so that the cost of upgrading to an automated parking payment kiosk is now less than 1 year's labor costs, which was the threshold he needed to motivate him to upgrade, which he does and lays off the parking cashiers.

Q: Is it better in terms of human respect and dignity to have no job and be dependent on taxpayers, or to have a job at $8/hour?

Q: Which is better for the economy, for the cashier to be working for $8/hour, or collecting unemployment?

Q: Is it reasonable that when the minimum wage goes up, some parking garages will actually do what's NOT in their financial interest and switch over to cashiers instead of automated kiosks, or delay the deployment of automated kiosks? Or is it safe to say raising the minimum wage will do nothing to encourage any parking garages to hire/retain cashiers?

Q: Do you agree that the hike in wage tipped the 'cashier vs. kiosk' a little bit in favor of the kiosk, and that likely this is enough to get some parking garages to make the switch to kiosks?

Please, no insults and vitriol. I'll be nice and polite if you will. Smile
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
05-12-2013, 02:18 PM (This post was last modified: 05-12-2013 02:54 PM by Adrianime.)
RE: Mininum Wage Protest
Not that this particular article has any real significance or credibility, but it does make a point.
http://www.thesimpledollar.com/the-diffe...-a-career/

I see the difference between jobs and careers similarly. You take a job to earn relatively easy money (note, im not talking about how strenuous the work is, but rather lack of required skillsets and education, and how easy it is to get hired). You do your work, you get paid. You think about your future and what career you may want to go into some day, and if this job is helping you get there. Or perhaps you accept the lifestyle that you gain from working your job.

I don't see the merit in going into a job, and then protesting that you aren't making what you think are worth. That isn't the role of a job.

piggybacking off what Chas said (though I don't agree), I think any company offering careers to their employees should offer a liveable wage. However I don't think companies should be forced to pay their lower tier "job" type employees a liveable wage (beyond min. wage).

If you get stuck...forced to work a job because you lost your career (or have only had jobs, but never a career), I know that probably sucks, and is unfair, and incredibly difficult. But the role of a job doesn't change because your situation isn't good. And the company you are working for certainly isn't going to treat you special because you are going through rough times. The most realistic option is to start thinking about what career you want to go in (and have a realistic chance of going into)..and work towards it. My Bro in law just recently is trying to get into a career as an electrician. He has 4 kids, is over 40, and has little to no post-HS education (but a solid job history), but he is trying to do what he has to do to meet his family's needs.

I prefer fantasy, but I have to live in reality.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
05-12-2013, 02:28 PM
RE: Mininum Wage Protest
(05-12-2013 02:10 PM)frankksj Wrote:  
(05-12-2013 01:51 PM)Chas Wrote:  Sorry, no.
If you are going to hire someone to do a job, then the job is worth a living wage.
Human dignity and respect demand that.
If you are not willing to pay a living wage for a job, then you are not showing any respect for a person's labor. All labor deserves respect. And if your business can only survive by paying slave wages, maybe your business doesn't deserve to survive.
Or maybe you don't know how to manage a business and you shouldn't be doing it.

Chas, it sure would be nice to put our vitriol behind us and have a civil, rational debate. Can we do that, please? I'll present a scenario and basic questions for you. And you're free to do the same and I promise to answer every question or challenge you present me head-on:

Scenario: A man owns a parking garage and has been paying my cashier $8/hour. Now the minimum wage goes up to $10/hour, so that the cost of upgrading to an automated parking payment kiosk is now less than 1 year's labor costs, which was the threshold he needed to motivate him to upgrade, which he does and lays off the parking cashiers.

Q: Is it better in terms of human respect and dignity to have no job and be dependent on taxpayers, or to have a job at $8/hour?

Q: Which is better for the economy, for the cashier to be working for $8/hour, or collecting unemployment?

Q: Is it reasonable that when the minimum wage goes up, some parking garages will actually do what's NOT in their financial interest and switch over to cashiers instead of automated kiosks, or delay the deployment of automated kiosks? Or is it safe to say raising the minimum wage will do nothing to encourage any parking garages to hire/retain cashiers?

Q: Do you agree that the hike in wage tipped the 'cashier vs. kiosk' a little bit in favor of the kiosk, and that likely this is enough to get some parking garages to make the switch to kiosks?

Please, no insults and vitriol. I'll be nice and polite if you will. Smile

Your questions are malformed. That job does not exist in a vacuum, it exists as one possible job in a marketplace.

If the parking garage owner wants to replace workers with kiosks, for whatever reason, he is free to do so. He is also free to continue using human workers if that suits his business model.

All labor deserves a living wage. That is an axiom.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
[Image: flagstiny%206.gif]
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 3 users Like Chas's post
05-12-2013, 02:43 PM
RE: Mininum Wage Protest
(05-12-2013 02:28 PM)Chas Wrote:  Your questions are malformed.

Can you clarify what you mean by "malformed"? Did you mean it was not grammatically correct and you couldn't understand the question? Assuming that you did understand the questions, what's the harm in answering them? I firmly believe in the 'there's no bad questions, only bad answers' saying, and worst case, you'd answer a question that was irrelevant. Even if the job does not exist in a vacuum, there is never harm in looking at one case-in-point. If you're unwilling to consider any individual cases, then you just have a complex system with millions of moving parts and you're changing the system without analyzing the individual effects.

(05-12-2013 02:28 PM)Chas Wrote:  If the parking garage owner wants to replace workers with kiosks, for whatever reason, he is free to do so. He is also free to continue using human workers if that suits his business model.

I agree with you. But that doesn't address the question. Does a minimum wage hike add an extra incentive for the parking garage owner to switch to kiosks, and what effect does this have on human dignity? It seems to me that if we're going to talk about showing empathy and concern for human dignity, we need to at least be willing to discuss it. Otherwise, imo, it's showing a lack of respect for human dignity to make changes that may make things worse and may be degrading for humans, without even being willing to answer simple questions.

(05-12-2013 02:28 PM)Chas Wrote:  All labor deserves a living wage. That is an axiom.

I wish Cjlr and Hafnof would chime in. An axiom by definition is a statement that is universally accepted as true without controversy. The "axiom" which I presented, and which they insisted did not fit that definition, was that "100,000x200 is greater than 100,000x2". If that statement which I made does not fit the definition of being universally accepted as true, I'm curious how they would rate your axiom that "All labor deserves a living wage". To me, that statement is, by its nature, subjective, and not universally accepted, because everybody has a different opinion of what a living wage is. Do you feel that the definition of "a living wage" is universal?
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
05-12-2013, 03:04 PM
RE: Mininum Wage Protest
(05-12-2013 10:56 AM)Brian37 Wrote:  
(05-12-2013 10:32 AM)LostandInsecure Wrote:  Again I am not worried about whether or not you think people deserve to make more money. People will make more money they DO make more money. The problem is that you are paying it not their employer.
Not everyone has the same story and I realize that there are people who just don't want to work at bettering their life. There are people who think the world should just give them everything they want and need, but there are plenty of people like me too. I am not perfect but I am willing to admit my mistakes and I am trying to fix them. It is super frustrating how impossible it seems. How many hours are in a day? How many jobs can I get? College is ridiculously expensive. Children are also expensive. I made a bad choice by getting married at 17 and never finishing college back then. Now I am ready to work my ass off to make up for that to give my kids the life they deserve. Now, I am lucky to get child support from my ex-husband. Not everyone in my situation has that, but I hate being financially dependent on him. There aren't enough hours in the day to go to school full time and work enough hours to survive on minimum wage. So for now I am stuck depending on child support. I cannot wait to graduate college and get a decent job and stop child support and cut all ties with my exhusband.

I may have went off topic a little haha.

"Decent job", every honest job that fills a societal need is a decent job. You want a higher paying job. That's fine, but that should not come at gutting our social safety net and lowering our standards.

Quote: There are people who think the world should just give them everything they want and need,

You mean like tax breaks the uber rich dont need? You mean like golden parachutes even when the CEO runs the company into the ground?

You mean like when the tax payers bail out big banks and housing industry because of the bubbles they create that fucked us over?

Since when in our species history has food been a luxury and not a necessity? You can't eat money.

Quote:There aren't enough hours in the day to go to school full time and work enough hours to survive on minimum wage.

BINGO!

But again, moving up is a ratio thing, at best we should want a lower middle class and no one living in abject poverty. Mobility has to exist and a little bit of inequality has to exist. I am fine with that. But low wages are hurting everyone, not just the poor.

I think it would be amazing to have a majority of A&B HS Grads and even a majority that have 2 and 4 year degrees, no matter what class they end up in.

You make the cost of living affordable for more people and the statement above will increase and our social problems such as crime and poverty and government dependency will decrease.

Mostly I agree with you, but if a job doesn't pay enough to support yourself and whoever else you need to support, then imo it is not a decent job.
There is no shame in working a minimum wage job. Someone has to do it, but I see it as something for teenagers, people who are still trying to get to a "decent" job, and people who are basically done working but just need the extra income. Imo it should not be someone's life goal and a person 24-50 should not be comfortable working a minimum wage job and saying this is all I aspire to do.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Losty's post
05-12-2013, 03:06 PM
RE: Mininum Wage Protest
(05-12-2013 01:51 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(05-12-2013 08:48 AM)BnW Wrote:  Muffs - I understood your point. I wasn't trying to imply you begrudged him for his job.

Lost - how much do you think a Taco Bell should pay people to sell $1 tacos? There is no skill involved, no educational requirement - what do you think that job should be paid? Oh, and many of the people who work there are in high school or are older and generally retired. Not all, but the vast majority of people I see working in those places (when I go into one - I hate fast food), are high school kids or older people supplementing their income. The managers aren't but they are paid a salary. So, how much should you pay them for having no skills?

I agree people need to earn a living wage. The way you do that is developing a skill for a job that pays one. I realize that we have a tough economy and I also realize that we have lost a lot of the types of jobs we used to have. So, you have to adjust. Get new skills. If you are 40 years old and working at McDonald's and can't afford to live in the salary you make, that is not McDonald's fault. It's your fault. Go get the skills required to get a better paying job. There is no shortage of programs out there to help with that.

Muffs is right - a larger part of the problem is a lack of personal accountability. It's not the entire problem, but for the people who are really at the bottom of the economic spectrum it is probably the biggest problem.

Final thought - when I was in high school I worked at a supermarket stocking shelves. It was tough work but it paid wellf or a high school student. There were people there in their 20s and 30s who had families, making not much more than I did, scraping by. None of them went to college, most of them dropped out of high school, and all of them had various levels of addiction problems with drugs or alcohol. So, who's fault was it they lived in squalor? Was it Pathmark's? Or, was it maybe their life choices that got them there?

Sorry, no.
If you are going to hire someone to do a job, then the job is worth a living wage.
Human dignity and respect demand that.
If you are not willing to pay a living wage for a job, then you are not showing any respect for a person's labor. All labor deserves respect.

And if your business can only survive by paying slave wages, maybe your business doesn't deserve to survive.
Or maybe you don't know how to manage a business and you shouldn't be doing it.

COMMUNIST! You love Stalin, you hate the private sector.Tongue

Poetry by Brian37(poems by an atheist) Also on Facebook as BrianJames Rational Poet and Twitter Brianrrs37
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
05-12-2013, 03:18 PM
RE: Mininum Wage Protest
Quote:Someone has to do it, but I see it as something for teenagers,

See there is the problem, same type of judgement projectionism. No one in my kitchen is a teenager, one of them is 78, been there 15 years, the others are in their late 20s to mid 30s and most of them have kids. One waitress like me has a college degree, been there a year longer than me 8 years.

Every honest job is decent, what is not decent are wages not keeping up with the cost of living.

Life is not a script and there will always be a range of people who move up, some who want more and some who don't feel the need to have as much.

We are not talking about your desires we are talking about a economy that is a race to the bottom. It shouldn't matter what class someone ends up in and there will always be plenty of variety in personal desires. This is about the gap, nothing more.

Poetry by Brian37(poems by an atheist) Also on Facebook as BrianJames Rational Poet and Twitter Brianrrs37
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
05-12-2013, 03:25 PM
RE: Mininum Wage Protest
(05-12-2013 03:18 PM)Brian37 Wrote:  
Quote:Someone has to do it, but I see it as something for teenagers,

See there is the problem, same type of judgement projectionism. No one in my kitchen is a teenager, one of them is 78, been there 15 years, the others are in their late 20s to mid 30s and most of them have kids.

Every honest job is decent, what is not decent are wages not keeping up with the cost of living.

Life is not a script and there will always be a range of people who move up, some who want more and some who don't feel the need to have as much.

We are not talking about your desires we are talking about a economy that is a race to the bottom. It shouldn't matter what class someone ends up in and there will always be plenty of variety in personal desires. This is about the gap, nothing more.

Actually I was talking about my opinion. I am entitled to have an opinion, right? You kind of cut my post off in a weird spot so that you could imply that I think only teenagers should work in minimum wage jobs. I do not think that and I did not say that. It wasn't about my desires. I was simply saying that I think all people should have goals, dreams, and aspirations beyond working minimum wage jobs. I try not to judge other people on how they choose to live their lives. If someone is comfortable doing nothing with their life, then that is their choice. I was just saying I think people should want more; I think people should aspire to be more. It isn't about money or what class you're in. It's about actually living your life instead of just existing in it.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
05-12-2013, 03:34 PM
RE: Mininum Wage Protest
I am telling you you are dead wrong. Most of the people who work in food service, or 7-11s or Wallmarts, ARE NOT teenagers. Open your eyes when you go out.

Quote:I think all people should have goals, dreams,

Delusional thinking. Is there anything wrong with having dreams? No. But most people will work for other people. That is a fact.

You are stupidly accusing me of saying everyone should "aim low". No I am saying that reality is not a utopia and what is ultimately most important is a stable society. Not your projecting on others what you think their happiness should be.

Poetry by Brian37(poems by an atheist) Also on Facebook as BrianJames Rational Poet and Twitter Brianrrs37
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: