Mininum Wage Protest
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05-12-2013, 03:36 PM
RE: Mininum Wage Protest
(05-12-2013 02:43 PM)frankksj Wrote:  An axiom by definition is a statement that is universally accepted as true without controversy.
Where, may I ask, did you get that definition from? Consider

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05-12-2013, 03:39 PM
RE: Mininum Wage Protest
Wallmart workers, 7-11 workers, gas station clerks, waitresses, cooks are all undervalued and underpaid. None of them begrudge business ownership, nor are most of them lazy, nor do they begrudge someone moving up. But they are undervalued and underpaid.

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05-12-2013, 03:44 PM
RE: Mininum Wage Protest
(05-12-2013 03:34 PM)Brian37 Wrote:  I am telling you you are dead wrong. Most of the people who work in food service, or 7-11s or Wallmarts, ARE NOT teenagers. Open your eyes when you go out.

Quote:I think all people should have goals, dreams,

Delusional thinking. Is there anything wrong with having dreams? No. But most people will work for other people. That is a fact.

You are stupidly accusing me of saying everyone should "aim low". No I am saying that reality is not a utopia and what is ultimately most important is a stable society. Not your projecting on others what you think their happiness should be.

Did I ever say, "most people who work minimum wage jobs are teenagers"? No I did not, love.
There is nothing delusional about having a dream and working your ass off to make it your reality. Are you saying having dreams means thinking you will never work for anyone? That doesn't make sense to me.
I haven't accused you of anything, love. Maybe you have a guilty conscience. I was simply stating my opinion. I haven't said a single thing about you or what you have said.
I will now though. If you think you have to live in a utopia to have dreams and actually achieve them, then you are delusional.
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05-12-2013, 04:08 PM
RE: Mininum Wage Protest
First off, don't call me "love". Your condescending tone won't win you any points with me.

Now again, I said it is delusional to think that everyone WILL make it to business ownership, and or the top of their chosen path. I NEVER SAID, "If you want to make the attempt don't try'", please tell me in any of my post "don't try".

I SAID most people work for someone else. That is where most people end up.

Whoopie Goldburg was a guest on "Inside The Actor's studio" during the question segment was asked "Will I make it to where you are sitting now", and her response was a refreshing dose of reality "You are all capable of being great actors, but no, most of you, if not all of you(meaning the audience of students) will not end up sitting where I am now"

Sports especially is the most insidious con perpetrated on kids. NFL for example, at the final cut before regular season you end up with 45 players. Multiply that by 32 teams. Now, consider the MILLIONS of college players jockeying for those limited spots. Then the dreamy eyed high school players and pee wee league players dreaming about those limited number of spots. Is is impossible? No, it does happen otherwise the league wouldn't have players. But to set kids up for disappointment like that is cruel and is what will happen to most kids dreaming of those spots. The few that do make it, sure, did the work, but it also took the luck of being in the right place for someone to notice.

It even boils my buttons when Obama says "You can be president if you want", no, only one person ends up president, many try every 4 years, but only one person gets that office.

EVERYONE is capable of doing the best at whatever they chose to do in life, that part is true, and many do get lucky but it isn't just simply work, that also takes luck. Most people if they want to be happy should do what they want in life, true. But most people will end up working for someone else.

Again, I have no problem with others wanting more, I do have a problem with a economy that devalues workers. I do have a problem with your utopia attitude.

The majority of our economic public are not the rich, or famous. The majority of our economic public are people that work for other people.

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05-12-2013, 04:27 PM
RE: Mininum Wage Protest
(05-12-2013 02:43 PM)frankksj Wrote:  
(05-12-2013 02:28 PM)Chas Wrote:  Your questions are malformed.

Can you clarify what you mean by "malformed"? Did you mean it was not grammatically correct and you couldn't understand the question? Assuming that you did understand the questions, what's the harm in answering them? I firmly believe in the 'there's no bad questions, only bad answers' saying, and worst case, you'd answer a question that was irrelevant. Even if the job does not exist in a vacuum, there is never harm in looking at one case-in-point. If you're unwilling to consider any individual cases, then you just have a complex system with millions of moving parts and you're changing the system without analyzing the individual effects.

(05-12-2013 02:28 PM)Chas Wrote:  If the parking garage owner wants to replace workers with kiosks, for whatever reason, he is free to do so. He is also free to continue using human workers if that suits his business model.

I agree with you. But that doesn't address the question. Does a minimum wage hike add an extra incentive for the parking garage owner to switch to kiosks, and what effect does this have on human dignity? It seems to me that if we're going to talk about showing empathy and concern for human dignity, we need to at least be willing to discuss it. Otherwise, imo, it's showing a lack of respect for human dignity to make changes that may make things worse and may be degrading for humans, without even being willing to answer simple questions.

(05-12-2013 02:28 PM)Chas Wrote:  All labor deserves a living wage. That is an axiom.

I wish Cjlr and Hafnof would chime in. An axiom by definition is a statement that is universally accepted as true without controversy. The "axiom" which I presented, and which they insisted did not fit that definition, was that "100,000x200 is greater than 100,000x2". If that statement which I made does not fit the definition of being universally accepted as true, I'm curious how they would rate your axiom that "All labor deserves a living wage". To me, that statement is, by its nature, subjective, and not universally accepted, because everybody has a different opinion of what a living wage is. Do you feel that the definition of "a living wage" is universal?

Your questions are malformed because they take that job and business in isolation. That is artificial.

And, no, an axiom is simply a statement that is assumed true for a system. It has nothing to do with anyone's opinion.

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05-12-2013, 04:29 PM
RE: Mininum Wage Protest
(05-12-2013 04:08 PM)Brian37 Wrote:  First off, don't call me "love". Your condescending tone won't win you any points with me.

Now again, I said it is delusional to think that everyone WILL make it to business ownership, and or the top of their chosen path. I NEVER SAID, "If you want to make the attempt don't try'", please tell me in any of my post "don't try".

I SAID most people work for someone else. That is where most people end up.

Whoopie Goldburg was a guest on "Inside The Actor's studio" during the question segment was asked "Will I make it to where you are sitting now", and her response was a refreshing dose of reality "You are all capable of being great actors, but no, most of you, if not all of you(meaning the audience of students) will not end up sitting where I am now"

Sports especially is the most insidious con perpetrated on kids. NFL for example, at the final cut before regular season you end up with 45 players. Multiply that by 32 teams. Now, consider the MILLIONS of college players jockeying for those limited spots. Then the dreamy eyed high school players and pee wee league players dreaming about those limited number of spots. Is is impossible? No, it does happen otherwise the league wouldn't have players. But to set kids up for disappointment like that is cruel and is what will happen to most kids dreaming of those spots. The few that do make it, sure, did the work, but it also took the luck of being in the right place for someone to notice.

It even boils my buttons when Obama says "You can be president if you want", no, only one person ends up president, many try every 4 years, but only one person gets that office.

EVERYONE is capable of doing the best at whatever they chose to do in life, that part is true, and many do get lucky but it isn't just simply work, that also takes luck. Most people if they want to be happy should do what they want in life, true. But most people will end up working for someone else.

Again, I have no problem with others wanting more, I do have a problem with a economy that devalues workers. I do have a problem with your utopia attitude.

The majority of our economic public are not the rich, or famous. The majority of our economic public are people that work for other people.

I never meant to be condescending and I am sorry if I came off that way. I call everyone love it wasn't some sort if backwards insult. I will try to refrain from calling you love.
I never said I think people should dream of being rich or famous. You are just making things up because you're so upset. I never said you think people shouldnt try. You are being so childish. I came on this thread and posted my opinion and you act like I am attacking you personally.
Your stuff about Oprah and sports is completely irrelevant. Let me try to put this where you can understand. I am talking about MY personal opinion. What I think.
Here is an example that may help you get it. I think abortion is wrong, but I am pro choice. In my personal opinion people should not have abortions except in life or death situations or if the pregnancy is a result of rape. I am pro choice because I am mature enough to know that my opinion holds no bearing on whether or not other people have the right to make their own choices.

Now, in my opinion people should dream of being more than a minimum wage worker and they should work towards making their dreams realities. People dream of being doctors, lawyers, school teachers, firefighters, etc. etc. etc.
People don't have to dream of being rich and famous for their dreams to count as dreams. Who dreams of working at McDonald's though? Probably no one. I hope no one does. I never said everyone should dream of owning their own business or never working for anyone. I just said people should aspire to do something with their lives. If a person ends up working minimum wage and then just stays there, to me that says they have given up on your dreams. They decided it wasn't worth the effort to do something with their life. They decided to take the easy way out and simply survive instead of living. That is just my opinion. It doesn't make me right. I never asked you to agree with me. I am sorry if you have a problem with my attitude. I never meant to offend you.
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05-12-2013, 05:13 PM
RE: Mininum Wage Protest
(05-12-2013 03:18 PM)Brian37 Wrote:  What is not decent are wages not keeping up with the cost of living.

YES!!! And do you think this is a serious enough problem that it warrants asking 'why'? Please, engage in a useful debate. Chas seems to be running from my questions, I would like to find some liberal who is willing to challenge his assumptions.

See, you hit the nail on the head. When the cost of living goes up, and wages do not keep up, you have poverty. And it's well understood by economists that wages do not rise as fast as the cost of living, so the faster the cost of living rises, the bigger the gap and the poorer the people.

But here's the question: Why is the cost of living going up?

Remember, in the 1950's and 60's, the cost of living in the US did NOT go up. The price of food, housing, etc. remained constant. And, naturally, when the cost of living remained flat, the poor got better and better as wages continued to rise, and the cost of living did not, and inequality shrunk. And there's a perfect correlation that the moment the cost of living started rising in the 1970's, the poor started getting poorer again and inequality reversed course. Why did the cost of living to raise in the 1970's?

Also, remember there was only one country that all through the 70's, 80's, and 90's had no cost of living increases--Switzerland. The price of a house in 1990 was the same as in 1970. And, unlike most of the world, the poor in Switzerland kept getting better and better, so that by 2000 they were the only country that had completely eliminated poverty, and had virtually no unemployment. Why didn't the cost of living increase in Switzerland?

Also, look throughout history. Every time the cost of living went up dramatically, inequality rose accordingly. There's a strong correlation between cost of living increases and poverty. So what should we do to prevent cost of living increases, so that as poor people's wages continue to rise, they will catch up and not be so poor?
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05-12-2013, 05:17 PM
RE: Mininum Wage Protest
(05-12-2013 03:36 PM)Vosur Wrote:  
(05-12-2013 02:43 PM)frankksj Wrote:  An axiom by definition is a statement that is universally accepted as true without controversy.
Where, may I ask, did you get that definition from? Consider

Wikipedia: "an axiom is a premise so evident as to be accepted as true without controversy."

I previously stated that "100,000x200 is greater than 100,000x2" and called it an "axiom". Cjlr and Hafnof insisted it's not an axiom, because it's not accepted as true without controversy.

Chas wrote: "All labor deserves a living wage. That is an axiom.", and Cjlr and Hafnof, naturally, are silent, seemingly accepting that Chas's statement is a true axiom accepted as true without controversy, whereas they made clear that mine was not.
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05-12-2013, 06:06 PM
RE: Mininum Wage Protest
(05-12-2013 05:13 PM)frankksj Wrote:  
(05-12-2013 03:18 PM)Brian37 Wrote:  What is not decent are wages not keeping up with the cost of living.

YES!!! And do you think this is a serious enough problem that it warrants asking 'why'? Please, engage in a useful debate. Chas seems to be running from my questions, I would like to find some liberal who is willing to challenge his assumptions.

It only seems that way to you. I told you why your questions were not applicable to the discussion.

And I gave you an assumption from which you seem to be running.

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05-12-2013, 06:28 PM
RE: Mininum Wage Protest
(05-12-2013 06:06 PM)Chas Wrote:  It only seems that way to you. I told you why your questions were not applicable to the discussion.

Chas, anytime someone is trapped in a debate with a question that they cannot answer, and they are unwilling to admit it, they will ALWAYS say the question is irrelevant or find some similar excuse to not answer the question. _IF_, however, you weren't trapped, you would (a) answer the question, and (b) then make me look stupid for asking such an irrelevant question. But when you refuse to answer the question, you're admitting that you know it is actually IS relevant and applicable. Otherwise there'd be no harm in answering it.

(05-12-2013 06:06 PM)Chas Wrote:  And I gave you an assumption from which you seem to be running.

I'm not sure what assumption you're referring to. Please specify the assumption, and I will show you that I will NEVER under any circumstances run from your assumption. You can ask my ANY question you want as well, and I will answer it head on. I will show you that if you throw an assumption at me that contradicts what I believe, I will happily say "guess I must be wrong", and I'll adjust my thinking.

It's that quality that makes one a libertarian, after all, since every human instinctively believes their opinion is right, others are wrong, and they have the right to force their opinion. However, if you're willing to say "gosh, maybe it's ME that's wrong, or maybe this is just an opinion and there is no right or wrong answer and I should just let everyone exercise their free will (ie liberty)", well then you change. You stop trying to use force to make other people do it your way, which is the one sole defining characteristic of classic liberalism (libertarianism).
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