Miracles, prophetic dreams and evile eye?
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22-04-2017, 05:35 AM
Miracles, prophetic dreams and evile eye?
Hello again if I don't know if I write this thread in a wrong theme but I found this them more appropriate (sorry about my English I am Greek and my level in English is not very good). I am atheist since 2 years because I realized that religions don't express me but there are some weird thinks who happens in my mom who confused me.

First of all about miracles: My mom although is logical and educated person (she has 2 university degrees) she believes in a saint (I don't say his name). First of all my mom raised in a vilage and there is a neiboring vilage who exists the church of this saint. Before I born my dad has oligospermia and the possibilities for my mom to start a baby was few. My dad start therapies and my mom bought a picture of this saint and the same day became pregnant. When my mom was pregnant in my sister doctors tests the baby and they found that my sister will born with down syndrome and she did a tama in this saint and my sister was born normal. When I was 10 years old I had severe appendicitis and my mom for 4 mounths my mom was seeing in the dream this saint to say that I am sick and I will die if she don't do something. In the day who had appendicitis when we went to the hospital and besides our car there was a truck who has the picture of this saint and when we arrived at the hospital I hear my mom to say that this saint drove us to the hospital. My appendicitis was severe and doctors said that there were few possibilities to save my life and my mom said that this saint saved my life. When I was younger I believed this because I was naive and I felt weak. A summer before the last year of high school my mom told me to do tama in this saint in order to pass in the department I want and I did it (4 years later did it my sister who is 4 years younger than me and she believes) I read this year a lot and I passed in the department I wanted I didn't wait to pass in this department but the year which I write greek exams there was dificult themes and the bases of departments fall and my mom said that this was miracle. 2 mounths before greek exams my mom found incidentally the picture of the saint in front of a bin and many times she find icindentally pictures of this saint and after 10 years old put in my room pictures of this saint and she don't let me to put out them becouse she say that they protect me and there are a lot of times which my mom see this saint on her dreams.

About prophetic dreams: my mom see dreams who many times become in the future and she knows what will happen. When I was 14 years old my sister went to luna park, this time was in my home with my mom and my mom said that she hear my sister to cry and in the same time my sister hurt.

About evil eye: if you don't in Greece we have the evil eye which is means that you hate or be jealus or you think bad things about someone and happens bad things in him/her. For example my grandma when she wished bad thinks about someone those thinks happened to him/her when I was born an aunt said something bad about me and my grantma wished to her to break her leg and after 5 minutes my aunt broke her leg. My mom also has a friend who jealus her and when she look a think in my mom or in my sister who like her (clothes shoes etc) the other day those clothes go bad.

Sorry about large text and my english but I am confused and I don't make fun I talk seriously do you believe in those thinks? Do you have similar expirience?
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22-04-2017, 05:50 AM
RE: Miracles, prophetic dreams and evile eye?
Hey there Smile

This whole thing sounds like lots of cases of confirmation bias to me. Good things happen all the time. Bad things happen all the time. They are always going to happen. But one event happening after another does not mean the first one caused it.

Let's say I rub my lucky penny. Now something good will happen! Indeed, it will. I only have to wait, and something that I could reasonably interpret as good will almost definitely happen to me or someone around me. But that is always the case, so the lucky penny had nothing to do with it.

Basically these are probably all cases of coincidence, and all the times things didn't line up in ways that reaffirm these ideas, they get ignored. Take the dream example. We all dream about all sorts of things all the time. Are we astounded each time something in our dream doesn't happen? No. We only notice when it does. And even if it that is the case, it again doesn't mean our dream caused or even predicted it.

If people believe in superstitious things, they are going to manufacture evidence for it. But such things never hold up under proper scientific investigation which removes all the confirmation bias and extremely vague success criteria.

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22-04-2017, 05:53 AM
RE: Miracles, prophetic dreams and evile eye?
(22-04-2017 05:35 AM)no_reason Wrote:  Hello again if I don't know if I write this thread in a wrong theme but I found this them more appropriate (sorry about my English I am Greek and my level in English is not very good). I am atheist since 2 years because I realized that religions don't express me but there are some weird thinks who happens in my mom who confused me.

First of all about miracles: My mom although is logical and educated person (she has 2 university degrees) she believes in a saint (I don't say his name). First of all my mom raised in a vilage and there is a neiboring vilage who exists the church of this saint. Before I born my dad has oligospermia and the possibilities for my mom to start a baby was few. My dad start therapies and my mom bought a picture of this saint and the same day became pregnant. When my mom was pregnant in my sister doctors tests the baby and they found that my sister will born with down syndrome and she did a tama in this saint and my sister was born normal. When I was 10 years old I had severe appendicitis and my mom for 4 mounths my mom was seeing in the dream this saint to say that I am sick and I will die if she don't do something. In the day who had appendicitis when we went to the hospital and besides our car there was a truck who has the picture of this saint and when we arrived at the hospital I hear my mom to say that this saint drove us to the hospital. My appendicitis was severe and doctors said that there were few possibilities to save my life and my mom said that this saint saved my life. When I was younger I believed this because I was naive and I felt weak. A summer before the last year of high school my mom told me to do tama in this saint in order to pass in the department I want and I did it (4 years later did it my sister who is 4 years younger than me and she believes) I read this year a lot and I passed in the department I wanted I didn't wait to pass in this department but the year which I write greek exams there was dificult themes and the bases of departments fall and my mom said that this was miracle. 2 mounths before greek exams my mom found incidentally the picture of the saint in front of a bin and many times she find icindentally pictures of this saint and after 10 years old put in my room pictures of this saint and she don't let me to put out them becouse she say that they protect me and there are a lot of times which my mom see this saint on her dreams.

About prophetic dreams: my mom see dreams who many times become in the future and she knows what will happen. When I was 14 years old my sister went to luna park, this time was in my home with my mom and my mom said that she hear my sister to cry and in the same time my sister hurt.

About evil eye: if you don't in Greece we have the evil eye which is means that you hate or be jealus or you think bad things about someone and happens bad things in him/her. For example my grandma when she wished bad thinks about someone those thinks happened to him/her when I was born an aunt said something bad about me and my grantma wished to her to break her leg and after 5 minutes my aunt broke her leg. My mom also has a friend who jealus her and when she look a think in my mom or in my sister who like her (clothes shoes etc) the other day those clothes go bad.

Sorry about large text and my english but I am confused and I don't make fun I talk seriously do you believe in those thinks? Do you have similar expirience?

Everyone has similar experiences, it's a matter of interpreting those experiences as part of a religious narrative or refusing to go along with these biased interpretations and simply live your life without forcing everything into a religious narrative.

If you don't play the game of confirmation bias, then the gods lose all of their power over you, your life becomes your own again and the gods go away.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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22-04-2017, 05:55 AM
RE: Miracles, prophetic dreams and evile eye?
I knew someone else would mention confirmation bias Tongue

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22-04-2017, 05:55 AM
RE: Miracles, prophetic dreams and evile eye?
(22-04-2017 05:55 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  I knew someone else would mention confirmation bias Tongue

GMTA! Thumbsup

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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22-04-2017, 06:06 AM
RE: Miracles, prophetic dreams and evile eye?
With regard to thinking bad things about someone causing bad things to happen to them...

Again, something bad is going to happen to any particular person eventually. That's life. Also, what does and doesn't count as "bad" is ultimately subjective, further adding to confirmation bias.

I could instead think happy thoughts about a person, and something bad will happen to them eventually.

Will it happen soon after? Maybe, maybe not. But to test out anything like this, you have to set some sort of criteria. Does a single day go by where any particular person experiences not one single thing that they could interpet as "bad"? Seems pretty unlikely to me. So just being alive causes this stuff to happen. It needs no help.

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22-04-2017, 06:59 AM
RE: Miracles, prophetic dreams and evile eye?
(22-04-2017 06:06 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  With regard to thinking bad things about someone causing bad things to happen to them...

Again, something bad is going to happen to any particular person eventually. That's life. Also, what does and doesn't count as "bad" is ultimately subjective, further adding to confirmation bias.

I could instead think happy thoughts about a person, and something bad will happen to them eventually.

Will it happen soon after? Maybe, maybe not. But to test out anything like this, you have to set some sort of criteria. Does a single day go by where any particular person experiences not one single thing that they could interpet as "bad"? Seems pretty unlikely to me. So just being alive causes this stuff to happen. It needs no help.

When I started to think critically when I was younger, I realized exactly what you were talking about. If you're going to say event X is bad and event Y is good, then to actually evaluate these things you would have to create a solid definition of bad and good to categorize them, you would also have to construct a scaling system as well that determines HOW bad or HOW good something is.

If I get a small shock after I grab a door knob, that's a small-scale event in the bad category, if I get crushed in a car wreck where I live in pain for a month and then die, that's a much larger scale of bad.

Without clear criteria at the onset the entire endeavor is a pointless exercise, throw in inexact timing of these events and it's an exercise in futility and if someone was just connecting dots, then they were employing biased and subjective interpretations that had no explanatory benefit, it was simple superstitious tripe looking at life with god goggles on and explaining things in this manner.

However, I reasoned that there actually is an entire industry that not only statistically tracks life events, but monetizes these events as well- the insurance industry.

I knew that there was no special Christian category in insurance tables there were only behaviors that had certain risks associated with them that weren't tied to religions or god.

The insurance industry had already done the hard statistical work to give a proper evaluation of life events and what determines good and bad events in life. It was random chance and behavior, not deities that determined these good and bad events.

After working through this, I realized that ALL miracle claims had to have this kind of statistical rigor to even begin to be taken seriously and that's why I started backing away from religion, I sat in these church services critically examining their claims with this in mind and seeing the the flaws in their thinking and how it was just a confirmation bias cluster-fuck.

Suddenly their god was wearing no clothes, but I knew that nobody in the room wanted to hear the conclusion that I had reasoned out about how they see life.

So I left the Christian circle jerk....

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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22-04-2017, 07:20 AM
RE: Miracles, prophetic dreams and evile eye?
Ahah, insurance premiums! You're totally right. You'd expect people in the "right" religion would have really low ones, compared to everyone else, wouldn't you? Funny how it never works out that way.

I think I'm in the minority here having never been religious. I can only imagine how bizarre the experience must be to have it dawn on you what an utter load of rubbish you have been fed up until that point. Somewhat akin to waking up in the morning, I guess? And wondering what the fuck you were dreaming about, and how it could ever have made any sense.

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22-04-2017, 07:37 AM
RE: Miracles, prophetic dreams and evile eye?
(22-04-2017 06:06 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  With regard to thinking bad things about someone causing bad things to happen to them...

Again, something bad is going to happen to any particular person eventually. That's life. Also, what does and doesn't count as "bad" is ultimately subjective, further adding to confirmation bias.

I could instead think happy thoughts about a person, and something bad will happen to them eventually.

Will it happen soon after? Maybe, maybe not. But to test out anything like this, you have to set some sort of criteria. Does a single day go by where any particular person experiences not one single thing that they could interpet as "bad"? Seems pretty unlikely to me. So just being alive causes this stuff to happen. It needs no help.

Yes but my grandma every time who thinks or wished bad things about someone those things happened but every time no 1 or 2 how do you explain this?
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22-04-2017, 07:53 AM
RE: Miracles, prophetic dreams and evile eye?
(22-04-2017 07:37 AM)no_reason Wrote:  
(22-04-2017 06:06 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  With regard to thinking bad things about someone causing bad things to happen to them...

Again, something bad is going to happen to any particular person eventually. That's life. Also, what does and doesn't count as "bad" is ultimately subjective, further adding to confirmation bias.

I could instead think happy thoughts about a person, and something bad will happen to them eventually.

Will it happen soon after? Maybe, maybe not. But to test out anything like this, you have to set some sort of criteria. Does a single day go by where any particular person experiences not one single thing that they could interpet as "bad"? Seems pretty unlikely to me. So just being alive causes this stuff to happen. It needs no help.

Yes but my grandma every time who thinks or wished bad things about someone those things happened but every time no 1 or 2 how do you explain this?

The burden of proof is on your grandma, did she apply scientific rigor, clear and falsifiable definitions of her claims? Or did she make her own biased assessment with zero scientific rigor?

Be honest here, I think we all know the answer to this.

If you don't apply unbiased and clear assessments of events as well as scientifically rigorous and falsifiable claims, then it's just a person telling stories.

What if Charles Darwin climbed off of the ship after the HMS Beagle's voyage and said - My grandma says god created us! Nothing to see here! Move along....

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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