Missouri Releases Another Prisoner
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23-10-2015, 08:41 AM
RE: Missouri Releases Another Prisoner
(23-10-2015 08:08 AM)jennybee Wrote:  I'm sorry you had to go through all of that. The fact that you were able to come out from all of that and stay strong through all of that is a true testament to your character. Nine years, I can't even imagine. I am so glad life is amazing for you now with your beloved, your son, and a baby on the way!

That's why I'm so afraid. I'm not scared of prison, despite all the PTSD-inducing traumas that occur almost daily, in there. I'm afraid of trying to explain to my son (and whatever gender our other turns out to be... we don't know yet) that, sometimes, the government isn't fair, and daddy has to go "away" again.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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23-10-2015, 08:43 AM
RE: Missouri Releases Another Prisoner
(23-10-2015 08:40 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  
(23-10-2015 08:34 AM)yakherder Wrote:  Fortunately, most of them probably aren't on atheist forums.

Point taken... but on the other hand, it's a public forum and... where better to look for Enemies of the State, so to speak?

Oh I'm sure the forums are glanced over regularly, but I'd like to believe it's being done at a higher level than those who'd care about local "trouble makers". I could be wrong.

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23-10-2015, 08:50 AM
RE: Missouri Releases Another Prisoner
I've pretty much come to the point where I find the idea of fair amusing. There is no data to reinforce the commonly held ideal that life is, ever was, or even should be fair. Life in general, not just any specific government, is a game of alliances and leverage. If you piss off the master and don't have the leverage to deter his or her retribution, you get fucked. If you are either the master yourself, make yourself indispensable to the master, or have the ability to bite back to the extent that the master considers it to not be worth the effort to cross you, then you have a degree of freedom.

Or maybe I'm just a bit disillusioned or a lot nuts.

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23-10-2015, 08:54 AM
RE: Missouri Releases Another Prisoner
(23-10-2015 08:22 AM)itsnotmeitsyou Wrote:  
(23-10-2015 08:17 AM)Tonechaser77 Wrote:  That's insane. These people don't review the stats of the states like CO and CA that have already legalized usage??? Ohio has an issue three to legalize it but I'm torn because it will create a monopoly and i think once that is rolling (no pun intended) it's more difficult to stop the ball.

I look at the issue here in Ohio and although it's not optimal, it's a huge step towards national legalization. Freaking OHIO has a good chance of recreational legalization... Ohio... We're not exactly a progressive state.

I just want a hydroponic set up in my garage without having to worry about getting my door busted in.

All good points. I think if more people knew why it was made illegal in the first place they would push to have it legalized again. Although it started in the early 1900s the demonization of it was extended to Mexican immigrants and TX made it illegal as a way to keep tabs on Mexicans through search, seizure and deportation. Since it worked so well there, the national government allegedly used to it keep other minority populations under control and essentially in the 30s the Tax Act banned it nationally.

I am definitely for the legalization of it and probably leaning towards voting yes on Issue 3 in Ohio. In economic terms, monopoly and perfect competition should be judged on the extent to which they contribute to improving the human well being and social welfare, therefore, it is important to assess whether the market structure is efficient or inefficient. I think it could be done well both ways. I haven't seen anyone propose legalization under more of a free market structure for Ohio but that doesn't mean the platform is not out there. Everything I've read about Issue 3 seems to be teased out fairly well and as you said, it's a step in the right direction.

Now issue 2 on the other hand is an anti-monopoly amendment to the Ohio constitution. But that is strictly what it is for and nothing else. So if it's voted in place we would be waiting several years before any type of pro-legalization terms under free market could emerge. The TV ads (which of course, I hate) are using the appeal to emotion that if Issue 3 passes kids may have access to marijuana in candy and lollipops. Give me a break. To be fair the ads for Issue 3 have used plenty appeal to emotion as well. That's why i despise the ads except for the fact that they at least gave me enough info to go search out the proposals for myself.

EDIT to add: I think Ohioians need to look at the overall picture. What's best for the economy and social well being of the population? We shouldn't just rush to vote to legalize it if the platform it stands on isn't in the best interest of society; hence monopoly vs. free market.

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23-10-2015, 08:56 AM
RE: Missouri Releases Another Prisoner
(23-10-2015 08:41 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  
(23-10-2015 07:00 AM)itsnotmeitsyou Wrote:  Some fascist overtones? Lol. Again... too mild. It is completely fascist.


I didn't want to exaggerate. It's certainly not thing that one would expect from country which allegedly values freedom so much.
This very much depends on the individual's definition of freedom. A quick look at the state of religious freedom in this country will show you that most believe in freedom as long as it conforms with their ideology.

Conservatives want you to be free, as long as you don't want to make choices about who/what you put in your body or who you worship.

Liberals want you to be free, as long as you don't want to make choices about what you can own or who you can buy it from.
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(23-10-2015 07:00 AM)itsnotmeitsyou Wrote:  Yeah, here in the USA, it's pretty bad. The mandatory minimum sentences for minor offenses are often more harsh than the punishment for murder or rape.

That's so fucking stupid that I think I lost couple of brain cells just by reading about that.
Yup, but many people believe that shit is justified. I've lost track of the number of times I've heard a family member or acquaintance say something along the lines of "ALL drug users should be locked away for life." or "Marijuana is the biggest threat to this country."

It's seriously fucking stupid and willfully ignorant. I've been a pothead for almost 20 years now. I'm a tax paying, productive member of society who has a quite successful career in IT. Going by these people's views, I don't exist.

Quote:
(23-10-2015 07:00 AM)itsnotmeitsyou Wrote:  Luckily, the tide seems to be turning against the drug warriors and their asinine crusade.

I'm not optimistic about it. How one could play hard sheriff without those bad drugs and spouting shit about saving children from becoming junkie?

I'm growing more optimistic as time goes on. The internet has been a boon for showing the bullshit we've been fed for all these years for what it is. Propaganda. People are becoming more aware of the abuses perpetrated by police in the war on drugs and the tide is turning. Hell, when people like Pat Robertson are starting to realize the drug war has been an epic failure, I've got hope that things will change.

Yeah, the individual police chiefs and DEA agents are going to fight it tooth and nail. There's a shit ton of money available for "fighting" drugs and it helps to justify having 20 cops for a town of 500. Just claim your area is being "infested" by whatever the drug du jour is and suddenly citizens are more than happy to increase their property taxes to pay for that SWAT team you've always wanted and the Armored truck you "need" to take down drug users.

They're still fighting a losing battle. People are very quickly starting to realize they're full of shit and are getting sick of watching their friends and family go to prison for smoking a joint.
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(23-10-2015 07:45 AM)itsnotmeitsyou Wrote:  It really disgusts me when I talk to many people about drug convictions. They've been so brainwashed by D.A.R.E. and all the other propaganda that they can't see the plain truth of the abuses that take place. They try to justify things with circular logic "It's illegal because it's bad. How do I know it's bad? Because it's illegal!" and they actually believe the bullshit they are fed about how horrible ALL drug users and anyone involved with them are.

It's something that should be expected. It seems to me that a lot of people have stake in war on drugs being continued so propaganda machine is working non-stop. It's no wonder that people believe it. Also one should take into account how authoritarian ordinary person can be, it's not like all people want others to have freedom to choose.

See above comment on what freedom means to many.

Excuse me, I'm making perfect sense. You're just not keeping up.

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23-10-2015, 08:56 AM
RE: Missouri Releases Another Prisoner
(23-10-2015 08:41 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  
(23-10-2015 08:08 AM)jennybee Wrote:  I'm sorry you had to go through all of that. The fact that you were able to come out from all of that and stay strong through all of that is a true testament to your character. Nine years, I can't even imagine. I am so glad life is amazing for you now with your beloved, your son, and a baby on the way!

That's why I'm so afraid. I'm not scared of prison, despite all the PTSD-inducing traumas that occur almost daily, in there. I'm afraid of trying to explain to my son (and whatever gender our other turns out to be... we don't know yet) that, sometimes, the government isn't fair, and daddy has to go "away" again.

Hug
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23-10-2015, 09:00 AM
RE: Missouri Releases Another Prisoner
The drug war is way more complicated than it was even a short time ago. 30 years ago, "fixing" it would have been as simple as decriminalization. Today, the cartels are more than powerful enough to threaten the sovereignty of the nations in which they operate, should their preferred source of revenue be compromised. Many are already well invested into industries like oil, real estate, etc. We missed the boat on that one.

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23-10-2015, 09:03 AM
RE: Missouri Releases Another Prisoner
(23-10-2015 08:54 AM)Tonechaser77 Wrote:  
(23-10-2015 08:22 AM)itsnotmeitsyou Wrote:  I look at the issue here in Ohio and although it's not optimal, it's a huge step towards national legalization. Freaking OHIO has a good chance of recreational legalization... Ohio... We're not exactly a progressive state.

I just want a hydroponic set up in my garage without having to worry about getting my door busted in.

All good points. I think if more people knew why it was made illegal in the first place they would push to have it legalized again. Although it started in the early 1900s the demonization of it was extended to Mexican immigrants and TX made it illegal as a way to keep tabs on Mexicans through search, seizure and deportation. Since it worked so well there, the national government allegedly used to it keep other minority populations under control and essentially in the 30s the Tax Act banned it nationally.

I am definitely for the legalization of it and probably leaning towards voting yes on Issue 3 in Ohio. In economic terms, monopoly and perfect competition should be judged on the extent to which they contribute to improving the human well being and social welfare, therefore, it is important to assess whether the market structure is efficient or inefficient. I think it could be done well both ways. I haven't seen anyone propose legalization under more of a free market structure for Ohio but that doesn't mean the platform is not out there. Everything I've read about Issue 3 seems to be teased out fairly well and as you said, it's a step in the right direction.

Now issue 2 on the other hand is an anti-monopoly amendment to the Ohio constitution. But that is strictly what it is for and nothing else. So if it's voted in place we would be waiting several years before any type of pro-legalization terms under free market could emerge. The TV ads (which of course, I hate) are using the appeal to emotion that if Issue 3 passes kids may have access to marijuana in candy and lollipops. Give me a break. To be fair the ads for Issue 3 have used plenty appeal to emotion as well. That's why i despise the ads except for the fact that they at least gave me enough info to go search out the proposals for myself.

EDIT to add: I think Ohioians need to look at the overall picture. What's best for the economy and social well being of the population? We shouldn't just rush to vote to legalize it if the platform it stands on isn't in the best interest of society; hence monopoly vs. free market.

Exactly.

I would much prefer it to be completely treated like alcohol and alcohol production. You can make your own for personal use, but you just need a license if you actually want to sell/distribute it. But, it's important to not fall into the nirvana fallacy and write the whole thing off because it doesn't give us exactly what we want.

I do hate the fact that there will only be a few commercial suppliers. I think they're greatly underestimating the demand that there will be for legal weed and those 10 farms will quickly run out of capacity. It also raises the issue of there still being a need for a black market. People are going to get weed, no matter what. Restricting how much can be produced and sold is only going to restrict how much tax money the government can collect.

Excuse me, I'm making perfect sense. You're just not keeping up.

"Let me give you some advice, bastard: never forget what you are. The rest of the world will not. Wear it like armor, and it can never be used to hurt you." - Tyrion Lannister
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23-10-2015, 09:20 AM
RE: Missouri Releases Another Prisoner
(23-10-2015 08:56 AM)itsnotmeitsyou Wrote:  This very much depends on the individual's definition of freedom. A quick look at the state of religious freedom in this country will show you that most believe in freedom as long as it conforms with their ideology.

It's definition of "freedom" that USSR during Stalin reign with agree with. It only show that neither spirit of totalitarianism nor ghost of authoritarism are dead.

(23-10-2015 08:56 AM)itsnotmeitsyou Wrote:  Conservatives want you to be free, as long as you don't want to make choices about who/what you put in your body or who you worship.

Liberals want you to be free, as long as you don't want to make choices about what you can own or who you can buy it from.

So both want to heavily curtain individual freedom. Neither of this option is particulary pleasing I would say.

(23-10-2015 08:56 AM)itsnotmeitsyou Wrote:  Yup, but many people believe that shit is justified. I've lost track of the number of times I've heard a family member or acquaintance say something along the lines of "ALL drug users should be locked away for life." or "Marijuana is the biggest threat to this country."

I also heard things like that but I'm not surprised by such statements. Quite a big number of Poles are authoritatian pieces of shit at heart which is not surprising given former regime and years spend behind Iron Curtain. So such tendencies are only to be expected especially when one know that gov cultivate such idea.

(23-10-2015 08:56 AM)itsnotmeitsyou Wrote:  It's seriously fucking stupid and willfully ignorant. I've been a pothead for almost 20 years now. I'm a tax paying, productive member of society who has a quite successful career in IT. Going by these people's views, I don't exist.

It is stupid but I don't have very high opinion about people in general.

(23-10-2015 08:56 AM)itsnotmeitsyou Wrote:  I'm growing more optimistic as time goes on. The internet has been a boon for showing the bullshit we've been fed for all these years for what it is. Propaganda. People are becoming more aware of the abuses perpetrated by police in the war on drugs and the tide is turning. Hell, when people like Pat Robertson are starting to realize the drug war has been an epic failure, I've got hope that things will change.

I'm growing even less opthimistic as I've never heard any real debate about drugs in Poland, though I don't particulary care about searching info about such.
It's seems clear to me that no politic who wish to succed in election will ever speak favourable about drugs.

(23-10-2015 08:56 AM)itsnotmeitsyou Wrote:  Yeah, the individual police chiefs and DEA agents are going to fight it tooth and nail. There's a shit ton of money available for "fighting" drugs and it helps to justify having 20 cops for a town of 500. Just claim your area is being "infested" by whatever the drug du jour is and suddenly citizens are more than happy to increase their property taxes to pay for that SWAT team you've always wanted and the Armored truck you "need" to take down drug users.

It's not surprising. After all it's not about catching rabbit.

(23-10-2015 08:56 AM)itsnotmeitsyou Wrote:  They're still fighting a losing battle. People are very quickly starting to realize they're full of shit and are getting sick of watching their friends and family go to prison for smoking a joint.

Maybe in USA. Here public adores acting like tough sheriff who save innocent childrens from those bad drugs. Or maybe just enjoy denying others what they want. Never can be sure with authoritarian types.

(23-10-2015 08:56 AM)itsnotmeitsyou Wrote:  See above comment on what freedom means to many.

Freedom means shit sadly. And it's not only about drugs.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

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23-10-2015, 09:39 AM
RE: Missouri Releases Another Prisoner
(23-10-2015 09:20 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  
(23-10-2015 08:56 AM)itsnotmeitsyou Wrote:  This very much depends on the individual's definition of freedom. A quick look at the state of religious freedom in this country will show you that most believe in freedom as long as it conforms with their ideology.

It's definition of "freedom" that USSR during Stalin reign with agree with. It only show that neither spirit of totalitarianism nor ghost of authoritarism are dead.
Yup. Authoritarianism is alive and well. I get so many nasty looks when I start dissecting the historical/cultural reasons why certain rules are in place and why they don't make sense anymore. People generally can't be bothered to question what they are told is "right". Hence why so many people are still religious.
Quote:
(23-10-2015 08:56 AM)itsnotmeitsyou Wrote:  Conservatives want you to be free, as long as you don't want to make choices about who/what you put in your body or who you worship.

Liberals want you to be free, as long as you don't want to make choices about what you can own or who you can buy it from.

So both want to heavily curtain individual freedom. Neither of this option is particulary pleasing I would say.
This is why I'm a libertarian. I believe in individual freedom so long as you're not harming anyone else or infringing on their individual freedoms.
Quote:
(23-10-2015 08:56 AM)itsnotmeitsyou Wrote:  Yup, but many people believe that shit is justified. I've lost track of the number of times I've heard a family member or acquaintance say something along the lines of "ALL drug users should be locked away for life." or "Marijuana is the biggest threat to this country."

I also heard things like that but I'm not surprised by such statements. Quite a big number of Poles are authoritatian pieces of shit at heart which is not surprising given former regime and years spend behind Iron Curtain. So such tendencies are only to be expected especially when one know that gov cultivate such idea.
Given Poland's history with authoritarianism, I actually find it quite odd that they are not more against it. I suppose I can see how generations of people would be indoctrinated into it, but I'd think the younger generations would be actively resisting that sort of thing.

Quote:
(23-10-2015 08:56 AM)itsnotmeitsyou Wrote:  It's seriously fucking stupid and willfully ignorant. I've been a pothead for almost 20 years now. I'm a tax paying, productive member of society who has a quite successful career in IT. Going by these people's views, I don't exist.

It is stupid but I don't have very high opinion about people in general.
Agreed
Quote:
(23-10-2015 08:56 AM)itsnotmeitsyou Wrote:  I'm growing more optimistic as time goes on. The internet has been a boon for showing the bullshit we've been fed for all these years for what it is. Propaganda. People are becoming more aware of the abuses perpetrated by police in the war on drugs and the tide is turning. Hell, when people like Pat Robertson are starting to realize the drug war has been an epic failure, I've got hope that things will change.

I'm growing even less opthimistic as I've never heard any real debate about drugs in Poland, though I don't particulary care about searching info about such.
It's seems clear to me that no politic who wish to succed in election will ever speak favourable about drugs.
It was much that way here in the States up until very recently. Only within the past few elections have we had candidates that openly oppose the drug war. It's changing more rapidly than I expected thought. I figured we'd MAYBE be this far along in another decade or so and maybe get recreational legalization a bit after that. I couldn't have imagined that the dominos would fall so quickly once recreational use started gaining favor.

Quote:
(23-10-2015 08:56 AM)itsnotmeitsyou Wrote:  Yeah, the individual police chiefs and DEA agents are going to fight it tooth and nail. There's a shit ton of money available for "fighting" drugs and it helps to justify having 20 cops for a town of 500. Just claim your area is being "infested" by whatever the drug du jour is and suddenly citizens are more than happy to increase their property taxes to pay for that SWAT team you've always wanted and the Armored truck you "need" to take down drug users.

It's not surprising. After all it's not about catching rabbit.

(23-10-2015 08:56 AM)itsnotmeitsyou Wrote:  They're still fighting a losing battle. People are very quickly starting to realize they're full of shit and are getting sick of watching their friends and family go to prison for smoking a joint.

Maybe in USA. Here public adores acting like tough sheriff who save innocent childrens from those bad drugs. Or maybe just enjoy denying others what they want. Never can be sure with authoritarian types.
We still definitely get that, especially in small town America. "We don't tolerate no marijuana in Bumblefuck, Idaho. We's good patriotic Americans here. Now lets go get drunk."
Quote:
(23-10-2015 08:56 AM)itsnotmeitsyou Wrote:  See above comment on what freedom means to many.

Freedom means shit sadly. And it's not only about drugs.

Freedom has become a buzz word, unfortunately. Its thrown about to describe what a politician thinks people want. It has been so ridiculously twisted that people actually believe that our constitution says you're free to be religious, but not free to be irreligious. Spoiler alert: Our constitution says no such thing.

Excuse me, I'm making perfect sense. You're just not keeping up.

"Let me give you some advice, bastard: never forget what you are. The rest of the world will not. Wear it like armor, and it can never be used to hurt you." - Tyrion Lannister
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