Missouri Releases Another Prisoner
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23-10-2015, 09:57 AM
RE: Missouri Releases Another Prisoner
(23-10-2015 09:39 AM)itsnotmeitsyou Wrote:  Yup. Authoritarianism is alive and well. I get so many nasty looks when I start dissecting the historical/cultural reasons why certain rules are in place and why they don't make sense anymore. People generally can't be bothered to question what they are told is "right". Hence why so many people are still religious.

Can't agree more. It's sad though.

(23-10-2015 09:39 AM)itsnotmeitsyou Wrote:  This is why I'm a libertarian. I believe in individual freedom so long as you're not harming anyone else or infringing on their individual freedoms.

So I guess we are both libertarians Smile

(23-10-2015 09:39 AM)itsnotmeitsyou Wrote:  Given Poland's history with authoritarianism, I actually find it quite odd that they are not more against it.

In a way many Poles are against what they see as authoritarian tendencies but in other hand they're blind to their own faults. Or they simply think that rules should not apply to them which is pretty common with right wing politicians.

I would hazard a guess that quite a number of people here want anarchy so they will be free to oppress or so they think.

(23-10-2015 09:39 AM)itsnotmeitsyou Wrote:  I suppose I can see how generations of people would be indoctrinated into it, but I'd think the younger generations would be actively resisting that sort of thing.

It's just change of posion. Then it was international workers now it is national pride. One is free as long one is a "true catholic patriot" who hate the left.

Also former indoctrination does not make immune to later propaganda. Those young people were taught by people who were brainwashed and not fond of critical thinking. So what other lesson they could impart to the young generation?

(23-10-2015 09:39 AM)itsnotmeitsyou Wrote:  It was much that way here in the States up until very recently. Only within the past few elections have we had candidates that openly oppose the drug war. It's changing more rapidly than I expected thought. I figured we'd MAYBE be this far along in another decade or so and maybe get recreational legalization a bit after that. I couldn't have imagined that the dominos would fall so quickly once recreational use started gaining favor.

Here former prime minister who is now hated was nearly universally applauded by banning certain drug. Only one politician claimed that he want change things but he was former rather fanatical catholic turned anticlerical at the drop of a hat. You could guess how worthy of trust his claims were even if he would achieve success in elections.

(23-10-2015 09:39 AM)itsnotmeitsyou Wrote:  We still definitely get that, especially in small town America. "We don't tolerate no marijuana in Bumblefuck, Idaho. We's good patriotic Americans here. Now lets go get drunk."

It appears that our countries aren't much different in that regard.

(23-10-2015 09:39 AM)itsnotmeitsyou Wrote:  Freedom has become a buzz word, unfortunately. Its thrown about to describe what a politician thinks people want. It has been so ridiculously twisted that people actually believe that our constitution says you're free to be religious, but not free to be irreligious. Spoiler alert: Our constitution says no such thing.

It's sad. Here is not better though as existence of blasphemy law clearly show.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

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23-10-2015, 12:06 PM
RE: Missouri Releases Another Prisoner
Blasphemy laws? *shudder*

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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23-10-2015, 12:17 PM
RE: Missouri Releases Another Prisoner
(23-10-2015 12:06 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  Blasphemy laws? *shudder*

To be fair it's called different but the name matters not. Only thing that matter is how it is used. Poland with all religious nonsense is something akin to theocracy.

Here is more info: https://freedomhouse.org/sites/default/f...Poland.pdf
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volo...nd-poland/

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

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23-10-2015, 12:24 PM
RE: Missouri Releases Another Prisoner
(23-10-2015 08:56 AM)itsnotmeitsyou Wrote:  I'm growing more optimistic as time goes on. The internet has been a boon for showing the bullshit we've been fed for all these years for what it is.

The internet is simultaneously the single greatest enabler of bullshit we've ever had. I find that rather harder to be optimistic about.

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23-10-2015, 12:28 PM
RE: Missouri Releases Another Prisoner
(23-10-2015 12:24 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(23-10-2015 08:56 AM)itsnotmeitsyou Wrote:  I'm growing more optimistic as time goes on. The internet has been a boon for showing the bullshit we've been fed for all these years for what it is.

The internet is simultaneously the single greatest enabler of bullshit we've ever had. I find that rather harder to be optimistic about.

Having infinite information at the click of a button only helps if you can filter the good stuff from the bullshit, which is difficult even for smart people. The dumb people don't stand a chance.

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23-10-2015, 12:28 PM
RE: Missouri Releases Another Prisoner
(23-10-2015 09:57 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  
(23-10-2015 09:39 AM)itsnotmeitsyou Wrote:  This is why I'm a libertarian. I believe in individual freedom so long as you're not harming anyone else or infringing on their individual freedoms.

So I guess we are both libertarians.

That is, rather, how everyone thinks.

"Individual", "freedom", and particularly "harm" are subject to an extraordinary variation in subjective understanding.

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23-10-2015, 12:30 PM
RE: Missouri Releases Another Prisoner
(23-10-2015 12:28 PM)yakherder Wrote:  
(23-10-2015 12:24 PM)cjlr Wrote:  The internet is simultaneously the single greatest enabler of bullshit we've ever had. I find that rather harder to be optimistic about.

Having infinite information at the click of a button only helps if you can filter the good stuff from the bullshit, which is difficult even for smart people. The dumb people don't stand a chance.

I feel education and ignorance to be a better lens through which to view such things. Intelligence consists of pattern recognition; those who are both intelligent and ignorant are the best at forming and defending false beliefs.

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23-10-2015, 12:31 PM
RE: Missouri Releases Another Prisoner
(23-10-2015 12:28 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(23-10-2015 09:57 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  So I guess we are both libertarians.

That is, rather, how everyone thinks.

"Individual", "freedom", and particularly "harm" are subject to an extraordinary variation in subjective understanding.

Some variation though are clearly product of delusional minds, example being idiots thinking that same sex marriage harms them or limit their freedom in some way.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

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23-10-2015, 12:57 PM
RE: Missouri Releases Another Prisoner
(23-10-2015 12:31 PM)Szuchow Wrote:  
(23-10-2015 12:28 PM)cjlr Wrote:  That is, rather, how everyone thinks.

"Individual", "freedom", and particularly "harm" are subject to an extraordinary variation in subjective understanding.

Some variation though are clearly product of delusional minds, example being idiots thinking that same sex marriage harms them or limit their freedom in some way.

Preventing someone from exercising discrimination is, trivially, restricting their freedom of action. When their desired freedom of action conflicts with another's, society must choose which to prioritise. That's why simply appealing to "freedom" isn't a whole argument.

It is problematic to just say things are "clearly" delusional. Assuredly your counterparts would say the same thing about you and your beliefs!

Our responses to the acts of others can be crudely divided into several rough categories. One of those is generally termed something like purity or sanctity. There are certain interpersonal acts (let's just say, for example, violent non-consensual sex acts) to which most people have a strong, immediate negative reaction (and there likewise are, necessarily given the variation of human beings, some who do not share that reaction). But that same wide variation means that for some people, personal distaste for, say, gay sex acts crosswires over with a purity ethic to create the belief that permitting such acts does actual harm to social cohesion.

To vaguely tie this back to the OP's content this is part of the genesis for many drug laws, since they're clearly not based on the proportional medical and interpersonal harm various drugs cause.

That's notwithstanding categorisation of acts (if not necessarily the reaction thereto) as a learned matter rather than strictly innate - we might begin from naturally varying neurological impulses but they develop in specific cultural contexts. That's why people can change their minds about these things, too.

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23-10-2015, 01:14 PM
RE: Missouri Releases Another Prisoner
(23-10-2015 12:57 PM)cjlr Wrote:  Preventing someone from exercising discrimination is, trivially, restricting their freedom of action.


Freedom of such close minded individuals end where they try to deprive others of rights or stop them from gaining said laws. It's not like such people are ordered to like idea of same sex marriage so whatever shit they spout about restricting their freedom is nothing more than pathethic whinning. To me at least.

(23-10-2015 12:57 PM)cjlr Wrote:  When their desired freedom of action conflicts with another's, society must choose which to prioritise. That's why simply appealing to "freedom" isn't a whole argument.

It may be not a whole argument but bigots have none. Being offended by something is not argument.

(23-10-2015 12:57 PM)cjlr Wrote:  It is problematic to just say things are "clearly" delusional. Assuredly your counterparts would say the same thing about you and your beliefs!

Sure, pieces of human trash who want to discriminate others would say that it's others who are delusional but it does not take a rocket scientist to see who is right.

(23-10-2015 12:57 PM)cjlr Wrote:  Our responses to the acts of others can be crudely divided into several rough categories. One of those is generally termed something like purity or sanctity. There are certain interpersonal acts (let's just say, for example, violent non-consensual sex acts) to which most people have a strong, immediate negative reaction (and there likewise are, necessarily given the variation of human beings, some who do not share that reaction). But that same wide variation means that for some people, personal distaste for, say, gay sex acts crosswires over with a purity ethic to create the belief that permitting such acts does actual harm to social cohesion.

I know, Haidt wrote about this in The Righteous Mind. I don't care though. Being grossed by something is not valid reason to deny others their right as much as certain people would want this.

Generally if act do not bring direct and undisputed harm to other I see no reason to oppose it. Being uncomfortable with something is not direct and undisputed harm I would say.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

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