Misunderstandings About Buddhism (Compassion4Life intro)
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24-12-2013, 07:25 PM
RE: Misunderstandings About Buddhism (Compassion4Life intro)
(24-12-2013 05:05 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(24-12-2013 01:14 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  "The disciple of the Noble Ones, Kalamas, who has such a hate-free mind, such a malice-free mind, such an undefiled mind, and such a purified mind, is one by whom, here and now, these four solaces are found."[/i]

And you fuckers may now proceed to suck my little dick. I am The Christ. I am the Buddha. I live The Word. ... So fucking blow me bitches. Banana_zorro

Not getting enough there, GM...? Laughat

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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25-12-2013, 07:40 PM
RE: Misunderstandings About Buddhism (Compassion4Life intro)
(24-12-2013 12:27 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Girly don't see the harm in it either. The Noble Eightfold Path to eliminate suffering seems ... well kinda noble to Girly. ("Right Livelihood" though is gonna be a problem for me since I work at a munitions research lab. Tongue ).

Good News for Girly:







Same applies for the N8FP. Thumbsup






.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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25-12-2013, 08:34 PM
RE: Misunderstandings About Buddhism (Compassion4Life intro)
(Brought up from The Colosseum, because it is of more interest here):


(24-12-2013 09:41 AM)WindyCityJazz Wrote:  The Dalai Lama said himself "If scientific analysis were conclusively to demonstrate certain claims in Buddhism to be false, then we must accept the findings of science and abandon those claims."

Point of interest: Although I do applaud the Dalai Lama for being open to science and even the primacy of evidence, I do see this statement from the Dalai Lama as hedging his bet and an attempt to shift the burden of proof. My contention is that if he were truly open to "accept[ing] the findings of science" and especially "abandon[ing] those [unsubstantiated] claims", he would also be open to its underlying methods, including the requirement for evidence to substantiate claims (see DLJ's excellent video find in his "Absence of Evidence" thread).

The very real problem that he faces with that, however, is that abandoning the mythical superstitious, unfounded "woo" aspects of the Tibetan religions' dogma, doctrine, etc., will essentially leave the religion with almost nothing left to stand on. The whole house of cards would come tumbling down. I actually think he knows this, and I would actually love to be able to chat with him some time about it, among other things to see if my hunch is true.

I wouldn't have a problem with the entire edifice tumbling down and being replaced with emphasis on what the Buddha actually taught, i.e., real and careful examination of the Buddha's teachings in the Nikayas, but I am not sure that something like that could ever happen in the current climate, especially given the climate with the Chinese government. But come to think of it, and just off the top of my head, such a move could totally destroy the Chinese government's efforts to usurp and hijack the Tibetan religions by way of silly edicts "forbidding HHDL to reincarnate", proclaiming a "Panchen Lama" in place of HHDL, etc. If HHDL were to proclaim that Lamaism has strayed from the Buddha's teachings and that all Tibetans should go by the Buddha's teachings in the Nikayas (and I think he actually has the absolute power to do so, actually), he and the Tibetan people would become immune to Chinese efforts to control them through their superstitions. They would be free to practice the N8fP and enjoy the benefits of that practice and thumb their noses at the silly Chinese's advances in that respect. Just sitting here musing over it, having just thought of it, it seems to me that HHDL just might be the only person in the history of the world who just might have the wherewithal and the authority, and even quite possibly the understanding of the world, of science, etc., and certainly the stones, to pull something like that off.


On another note, HHDL has a "world stage" face and an "internal matters" face. One can see more about this by Googling "shugden controversy". Briefly, HHDL has disavowed the "worship" of a certain deity in the pantheon of deities in the Lamaist (Tibetan "Buddhist") religions, and a schism has developed over it which has resulted in not a small amount of violence and even murder. So ultimately, I dunno. Perhaps the whole "If science were to..." business is just him paying lip service to the real world (he does actually make state decisions based on the babblings of a witch doctor "oracle"), but there is much to indicate that he sees that if his religion and the unity of his people that it represents are to survive, they have to adapt to the real world.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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25-12-2013, 09:12 PM
RE: Misunderstandings About Buddhism (Compassion4Life intro)
(25-12-2013 08:34 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  (Brought up from The Colosseum, because it is of more interest here):


(24-12-2013 09:41 AM)WindyCityJazz Wrote:  The Dalai Lama said himself "If scientific analysis were conclusively to demonstrate certain claims in Buddhism to be false, then we must accept the findings of science and abandon those claims."

Point of interest: Although I do applaud the Dalai Lama for being open to science and even the primacy of evidence, I do see this statement from the Dalai Lama as hedging his bet and an attempt to shift the burden of proof. My contention is that if he were truly open to "accept[ing] the findings of science" and especially "abandon[ing] those [unsubstantiated] claims", he would also be open to its underlying methods, including the requirement for evidence to substantiate claims (see DLJ's excellent video find in his "Absence of Evidence" thread).

The very real problem that he faces with that, however, is that abandoning the mythical superstitious, unfounded "woo" aspects of the Tibetan religions' dogma, doctrine, etc., will essentially leave the religion with almost nothing left to stand on. The whole house of cards would come tumbling down. I actually think he knows this, and I would actually love to be able to chat with him some time about it, among other things to see if my hunch is true.

I wouldn't have a problem with the entire edifice tumbling down and being replaced with emphasis on what the Buddha actually taught, i.e., real and careful examination of the Buddha's teachings in the Nikayas, but I am not sure that something like that could ever happen in the current climate, especially given the climate with the Chinese government. But come to think of it, and just off the top of my head, such a move could totally destroy the Chinese government's efforts to usurp and hijack the Tibetan religions by way of silly edicts "forbidding HHDL to reincarnate", proclaiming a "Panchen Lama" in place of HHDL, etc. If HHDL were to proclaim that Lamaism has strayed from the Buddha's teachings and that all Tibetans should go by the Buddha's teachings in the Nikayas (and I think he actually has the absolute power to do so, actually), he and the Tibetan people would become immune to Chinese efforts to control them through their superstitions. They would be free to practice the N8fP and enjoy the benefits of that practice and thumb their noses at the silly Chinese's advances in that respect. Just sitting here musing over it, having just thought of it, it seems to me that HHDL just might be the only person in the history of the world who just might have the wherewithal and the authority, and even quite possibly the understanding of the world, of science, etc., and certainly the stones, to pull something like that off.


On another note, HHDL has a "world stage" face and an "internal matters" face. One can see more about this by Googling "shugden controversy". Briefly, HHDL has disavowed the "worship" of a certain deity in the pantheon of deities in the Lamaist (Tibetan "Buddhist") religions, and a schism has developed over it which has resulted in not a small amount of violence and even murder. So ultimately, I dunno. Perhaps the whole "If science were to..." business is just him paying lip service to the real world (he does actually make state decisions based on the babblings of a witch doctor "oracle"), but there is much to indicate that he sees that if his religion and the unity of his people that it represents are to survive, they have to adapt to the real world.

He seems like a cool guy who knows what's up, from what I have seen. If more leaders were like the Dalai Lama the world might be a better place. I think Buddhism has a lot of good points but like any doctrine can be taken to an extreme (see that monk in mumbai) it does lend itself to a lot of woo as well. On the whole Buddhism is probably the least likely of the major world religions to cause a huge problem.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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25-12-2013, 10:29 PM (This post was last modified: 25-12-2013 11:09 PM by WindyCityJazz.)
RE: Misunderstandings About Buddhism (Compassion4Life intro)
(25-12-2013 08:34 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  (Brought up from The Colosseum, because it is of more interest here):


(24-12-2013 09:41 AM)WindyCityJazz Wrote:  The Dalai Lama said himself "If scientific analysis were conclusively to demonstrate certain claims in Buddhism to be false, then we must accept the findings of science and abandon those claims."

Point of interest: Although I do applaud the Dalai Lama for being open to science and even the primacy of evidence, I do see this statement from the Dalai Lama as hedging his bet and an attempt to shift the burden of proof. My contention is that if he were truly open to "accept[ing] the findings of science" and especially "abandon[ing] those [unsubstantiated] claims", he would also be open to its underlying methods, including the requirement for evidence to substantiate claims (see DLJ's excellent video find in his "Absence of Evidence" thread).

The very real problem that he faces with that, however, is that abandoning the mythical superstitious, unfounded "woo" aspects of the Tibetan religions' dogma, doctrine, etc., will essentially leave the religion with almost nothing left to stand on. The whole house of cards would come tumbling down. I actually think he knows this, and I would actually love to be able to chat with him some time about it, among other things to see if my hunch is true.

I wouldn't have a problem with the entire edifice tumbling down and being replaced with emphasis on what the Buddha actually taught, i.e., real and careful examination of the Buddha's teachings in the Nikayas, but I am not sure that something like that could ever happen in the current climate, especially given the climate with the Chinese government. But come to think of it, and just off the top of my head, such a move could totally destroy the Chinese government's efforts to usurp and hijack the Tibetan religions by way of silly edicts "forbidding HHDL to reincarnate", proclaiming a "Panchen Lama" in place of HHDL, etc. If HHDL were to proclaim that Lamaism has strayed from the Buddha's teachings and that all Tibetans should go by the Buddha's teachings in the Nikayas (and I think he actually has the absolute power to do so, actually), he and the Tibetan people would become immune to Chinese efforts to control them through their superstitions. They would be free to practice the N8fP and enjoy the benefits of that practice and thumb their noses at the silly Chinese's advances in that respect. Just sitting here musing over it, having just thought of it, it seems to me that HHDL just might be the only person in the history of the world who just might have the wherewithal and the authority, and even quite possibly the understanding of the world, of science, etc., and certainly the stones, to pull something like that off.


On another note, HHDL has a "world stage" face and an "internal matters" face. One can see more about this by Googling "shugden controversy". Briefly, HHDL has disavowed the "worship" of a certain deity in the pantheon of deities in the Lamaist (Tibetan "Buddhist") religions, and a schism has developed over it which has resulted in not a small amount of violence and even murder. So ultimately, I dunno. Perhaps the whole "If science were to..." business is just him paying lip service to the real world (he does actually make state decisions based on the babblings of a witch doctor "oracle"), but there is much to indicate that he sees that if his religion and the unity of his people that it represents are to survive, they have to adapt to the real world.

That is an interesting thought, and a very tough call for Tibetan Buddhists. It would certainly be helpful to eliminate any woo from Buddhism and focus only on the teachings of the Buddha as far as the religion goes. However, there are a few issues that come with it. If the Dalai Lama loses his status as an important spokesman, the sufferings of Tibetans from the oppression of the Chinese government could fall into obscurity among the general public. One of his main focuses is to keep the oppression of Tibetans at the hands of the Chinese government in the public eye. Tibet could simply turn back into a forgotten land, because the Chinese government certainly isn't going to allow any kind of news about it's actions in Tibet to be released unless it is drenched in their own propaganda (which has gotten so ridiculous that the Chinese government actually gave Chinese people a list of reasons why smog is good for them!): http://www.policymic.com/articles/76273/...g-to-china

It's definitely better for Buddhism to get rid of holy positions and strictly focus on the teachings of the Buddha, but the loss of the Dalai Lama could prove disastrous for the people of Tibet in their struggles against the Chinese government. Tibet is an incredibly poor nation, and the fact that the areas where the vast majority of people live are geographically cut off from the rest of the world is very detrimental, especially when being oppressed by a superpower like China. The Chinese government could easily keep Tibet shut out from the rest of the world. So the intertwining of religion and politics when it comes to Tibet and the Dalai Lama makes this a very difficult situation. If Tibet was an independent nation, and not suffering from Chinese oppression, then there is no question that the best thing for Tibetan Buddhists to do would be to simply get rid of holy positions and any kind of woo involved and strictly focus on the teachings of the Buddha. Unfortunately, the current political situation of Tibet changes things drastically so that there is no cut and dry option as to what will be better for the people of Tibet.

“Religion was invented when the first con man met the first fool.” - Mark Twain
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