Moderate islam?<- questions answered here
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28-12-2011, 07:55 PM
RE: Moderate islam?<- questions answered here
(28-12-2011 06:28 PM)Chas Wrote:  I would like to mention that Sam Harris, Christopher Hitchens, and others argue that the moderate form/practice of a religion enables the existence of extremist form/practice.

Do you feel that Harris, Hitchens, and Dawkins make that point convincingly? It's always struck me as the weakest part of their argument.

If you look at the liberal ends of Judaism and Christianity--the groups that understand the limitations of Scripture, that appreciate science, that welcome homosexuals and fully respect gay relationships, that believe in equality of the sexes, that are concerned not with saving souls but with feeding the hungry and clothing the naked--how are they enabling the extremists? I've never understood the connection.

Religious disputes are like arguments in a madhouse over which inmate really is Napoleon.
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28-12-2011, 08:26 PM
RE: Moderate islam?<- questions answered here
What I took from that video was that, in all religions you have your moderates and your fundies.

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28-12-2011, 09:35 PM (This post was last modified: 28-12-2011 09:44 PM by Erxomai.)
RE: Moderate islam?<- questions answered here
(28-12-2011 08:26 PM)aurora2020 Wrote:  What I took from that video was that, in all religions you have your moderates and your fundies.

And in atheism too. Tongue
(28-12-2011 07:55 PM)cufflink Wrote:  
(28-12-2011 06:28 PM)Chas Wrote:  I would like to mention that Sam Harris, Christopher Hitchens, and others argue that the moderate form/practice of a religion enables the existence of extremist form/practice.

Do you feel that Harris, Hitchens, and Dawkins make that point convincingly? It's always struck me as the weakest part of their argument.

If you look at the liberal ends of Judaism and Christianity--the groups that understand the limitations of Scripture, that appreciate science, that welcome homosexuals and fully respect gay relationships, that believe in equality of the sexes, that are concerned not with saving souls but with feeding the hungry and clothing the naked--how are they enabling the extremists? I've never understood the connection.

I'm freshly done with a Dawkins book and currently into Harris and Hitchens, and my take on this argument is liberal religionists have made their way away from a more conservative orthodoxy, but they ought to just go all the way and drop the whole religious belief. Because they keep religion in a liberal way, that does cause more conservative folks to go even deeper into their extremist ways. There is a real sense of privilege and mission with a conservative believer. They see it a privilege to have been given God's grace to understand his deeper and purer ways, and they have a mission to defend the true faith against further liberalization, which is seen, obviously as a negative thing to them.

So to make it a bit more concrete, I know a guy who knows a guy. This guy I know was extremely involved in the Pro-Life movement and as strange as that is, he was a good guy, but he knew people in that movement who he speculated may have been on the more militant side of the fight against abortion. The guy I knew, let's call him George since that's his name, did not believe in the violence, but he believed that if he didn't step up for what he believed, the Truth of Christianity was going to get drowned out by the liberals and atheists! My point is, if someone is already conservative, if they see their dearly held beliefs in danger, they could become an extremist in more violent ways.

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28-12-2011, 10:27 PM
RE: Moderate islam?<- questions answered here
(28-12-2011 09:35 PM)Erxomai Wrote:  Because they keep religion in a liberal way, that does cause more conservative folks to go even deeper into their extremist ways. There is a real sense of privilege and mission with a conservative believer. They see it a privilege to have been given God's grace to understand his deeper and purer ways, and they have a mission to defend the true faith against further liberalization, which is seen, obviously as a negative thing to them.

Thanks, Erx. That's a possibility I hadn't thought of. But I see it as an empirical question. Although the result you've described seems plausible, I'd like to see an objective study of what happens when a traditional religion develops liberal outshoots. Did Orthodox Judaism become even more orthodox and intransigent when the Reform movement came along in the early 1800's? Are Christian fundamentalists now even more anti-gay than they originally were because of the writings of Bishop Spong and the acceptance of gay clergy by certain churches? Possibly. But I'd love to see the stats. Smile

Religious disputes are like arguments in a madhouse over which inmate really is Napoleon.
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29-12-2011, 04:32 AM (This post was last modified: 29-12-2011 05:16 AM by Jackrabbit.)
RE: Moderate islam?<- questions answered here
Well actually the whole point of religion is ignoring a set of rules. but then the moderates overlook the rules they dont want to adhere to and stick to the faith in general...
is it because they believe deep down that religion is a sham? and if they think god is ok with ignoring parts of the faith then why not ignore the whole faith alltogether.

Id also appreciateif u guys spread this video on forums or facebook and help it gain publicity, if u agree with the message and content. Smile

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