Moderates
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22-05-2012, 08:11 PM
Moderates
There are many people who would consider themselves moderates (this can relate to any topic really). I have nothing against people who lean towards the middle. But when those people start giving a certain side credibility where there is none is what really puzzles me. I have seen many people give creationism some merit, or say that there's a left-wing equivalent to Fox "News". I start to wonder if these people are really moderates, or are being moderates just for the purpose of being moderates. Moderate beliefs are fine, but I think it becomes a problem when it starts to interfere with the truth. I think people more often than not take the middle ground just because they're afraid of hurting one side's feelings or something similar. I feel that if this overly-moderate attitude stays, people can't say what they think or what is true because someone will cry if they don't compliment them on something.

What do you think? Do you think people take moderate ideals too far, to the point where it conflicts with facts?
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22-05-2012, 09:22 PM
RE: Moderates
Sam Harris sums my feelings up quite nicely in my sig.

Also, when I encounter the people who only are quasi-religious "just in case there's a god," I use Revelations 3:15-16. "I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other! So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth."

God actually prefers atheists over moderates, because at least we have taken a firm stance with our beliefs.

"Ain't got no last words to say, yellow streak right up my spine. The gun in my mouth was real and the taste blew my mind."

"We see you cry. We turn your head. Then we slap your face. We see you try. We see you fail. Some things never change."
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22-05-2012, 09:38 PM
RE: Moderates
Hey, Scott.

I would say that the moderate position does not necessarily have to correspond to fact. I mean, it typically does, but there is no mechanism that impels it to.

For example, the moderate American believes that the US is the best country in the world. This is demonstrably false using several different metrics.

But here's the thing. Any belief that lies on a spectrum (which is most) looks like a dart board. If you plot the positions of individuals as points on that board, the vast majority of points will be near the bullseye because the moderate position is basically what the most people agree with; that agreement being the result of a discourse. So while what that bullseye is might shift, the fact that the thickest cluster of people will be near it will not.

To use a popular example (popular meaning well regarded myth) at one point, most people thought the earth was flat. That was the moderate position. The bullseye shifted and now most people think the earth is a ball that orbits a sun in a backwater arm of a spiral galaxy. That's now the moderate position.

The further away from the bullseye one gets, the more "extreme" their position. The fact is that one point will always be the furthest from the bullseye. That's true even if 99.999999% sit perfectly stacked on the bullseye Robin Hood splitting an arrow style (which would be impossible, but hey), and one person is right next to them all. But the extreme is always the position that sits appreciably outside of the moderate zone. They have a greater tendency to run afoul of fact or at least of reason because they're operating outside of the moderate discourse, which, while not always fact-producing, is at least reasonable and not bat shit crazy.

Creationism is one of those extreme positions. The moderate discourse, the one occurring between moderate scientists and moderate Theists, is producing a picture that is decidedly non-creationist. People who believe in it really are extremists (as I've described it, not in the pejorative sense). Just like those people who talk about there being a left wing Fox News equivalent. Those involved in the moderate discourse hear that and are like, "Wooudjyoo talkin bout, Willis?"

If you ever have trouble telling the difference between the moderate position and the extreme position, the moderate one is the inclusive one and the extreme one is the exclusive one. Inclusiveness is a far more important part of the moderate position than any capital-T Truth. It's the inclusiveness of the position that attracts people to the centre, not fear. Also, the moderate position is the complex argument accepting multiple determinants. The extreme one is simplistic and usually promotes the idea of single determinants.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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23-05-2012, 12:23 AM
RE: Moderates




Fox news is so beyond overwhelmingly stupid that I can't believe we even allow them to call themselves news when they just push their own ridiculous agenda. There is no left wing equivalent to something like this and it doesn't surprise me that the religious right flock to this news source.

[Image: fox+news.jpg]

[Image: stupid-pie-chart-fox-news.jpg]

[Image: more-than-100-percent.jpg]

[Image: CONSPIRACY-THEORIES-You-can-trust-Fox-Ne...y-time.jpg]

"Mankind must put an end to war, or war will put an end to mankind." -John F Kennedy

The way to see by Faith is to shut the eye of Reason.” -Benjamin Franklin

It has been a long time. How have you been?
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23-05-2012, 01:49 AM
RE: Moderates
Trust Ghost the agnostic to pander to the middle; make it sound all reasonable and shit. Tongue
I'm more with BC on this one. A moderate weighs in with compromise, which means they're good for ballast. Doesn't mean they provide information, leadership, passion nor vision. Does mean you kan throw them overboard. Big Grin

[Image: klingon_zps7e68578a.jpg]
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23-05-2012, 05:55 PM
RE: Moderates
(23-05-2012 01:49 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  Trust Ghost the agnostic to pander to the middle; make it sound all reasonable and shit. Tongue
I'm more with BC on this one. A moderate weighs in with compromise, which means they're good for ballast. Doesn't mean they provide information, leadership, passion nor vision. Does mean you kan throw them overboard. Big Grin

Better make sure you got the sumo skills to throw the ballast overboard first, lest you find yourself wet. Big Grin

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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24-05-2012, 06:01 AM
RE: Moderates
Hey, Cantor.

Soooooo, you're not a moderate? That would make you an extremist, no?

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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24-05-2012, 10:09 AM
RE: Moderates
Drive-by visualisation!
(22-05-2012 09:38 PM)Ghost Wrote:  But here's the thing. Any belief that lies on a spectrum (which is most) looks like a dart board.



This sounds like a cool model Smile

Okay:

[Image: j8zd4h.jpg]

(22-05-2012 09:38 PM)Ghost Wrote:  If you plot the positions of individuals as points on that board, the vast majority of points will be near the bullseye because the moderate position is basically what the most people agree with; that agreement being the result of a discourse.



Righto:

[Image: 530c3s.jpg]

(22-05-2012 09:38 PM)Ghost Wrote:  If you ever have trouble telling the difference between the moderate position and the extreme position, the moderate one is the inclusive one and the extreme one is the exclusive one. Inclusiveness is a far more important part of the moderate position than any capital-T Truth.


Okay - let's assume that 'evidence' is another important modifier...And voila :

[Image: 2zntr3s.jpg]

"Christianity is like a diet where you eat lots of chocolate cake all week, and then on Sunday you mentally scold yourself and "try again" only to repeat the cycle." - Buddy Christ
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24-05-2012, 10:34 AM
RE: Moderates
Hey, Shannow.

I know you mean well, but please don't hijack my ideas Cool

I said dart board, not Cartesian graph. And I don't know where the hell those X and Y values came from.

For the record, that model doesn't resemble what I said in the least and should not be used to represent my idea in any way shape or form.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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24-05-2012, 12:23 PM
RE: Moderates
Wow, that's ahem "concise" feedback. One might even say extreme Wink

This debate is fascinating, so rather than hijack your discussion by justifying my logic in making the picture based purely on your comments, I look forward to hearing more about your model and your views about moderation.

If the 'bullseye' of the 'new moderation' moves as new ideas gain traction, e,g flat earth vs round earth, how does it move if not along an axis? What values would you apply?

"Christianity is like a diet where you eat lots of chocolate cake all week, and then on Sunday you mentally scold yourself and "try again" only to repeat the cycle." - Buddy Christ
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