Moderates - the REAL problem?
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27-01-2015, 04:24 PM
Moderates - the REAL problem?
So what say you? Are moderates THE issue? Are moderates protecting the crazy fundamental believers and thus keeping religion alive?

Before you auto-answer "Hell no they aren't that's ridiculous" I would cautiously consider a closer look.

While it may seem that the fundamentalists are the true cancer, I still have an issue with the downplaying that goes on in the civilized arena. Trying to debate a moderate American Christian can be frustrating because some of them think you're being dramatic. It's almost as if they are saying "Dude... relax. Religion, church, and all that shit is just whatever". "Stop watching ISIS coverage." Huh Many of these types you'll find in America's suburbs for example. They go to church twice a week, raise their kids to pray and find God, but somehow think YOU'RE the bat shit crazy person when you start breaking down their religious claims and ultimately they sort of back out of the discussion. Similar to raising a concern to the nearest wall and it's not because you've hit a nerve but moreso because they just don't really care THAT much.

I think religion NEEDS these moderates to be moderate and respond just as my hypothetical douchebag would respond. Moderates are enablers. Followers. As I addressed in my open apology post, I'm not gunning for these types and understand in some cases their need to "play Chess" when de-converting from their religious belief, but I think conversations need to be had with the moderate religious tactfully. Ultimately moderate believers need to be challenged... if they want to be religious then get off the fence and be religious. You are either a part of the problem or a part of the solution.
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27-01-2015, 04:48 PM
RE: Moderates - the REAL problem?
(27-01-2015 04:24 PM)dirtstar Wrote:  So what say you? Are moderates THE issue? Are moderates protecting the crazy fundamental believers and thus keeping religion alive?

Before you auto-answer "Hell no they aren't that's ridiculous" I would cautiously consider a closer look.

While it may seem that the fundamentalists are the true cancer, I still have an issue with the downplaying that goes on in the civilized arena. Trying to debate a moderate American Christian can be frustrating because some of them think you're being dramatic. It's almost as if they are saying "Dude... relax. Religion, church, and all that shit is just whatever". "Stop watching ISIS coverage." Huh Many of these types you'll find in America's suburbs for example. They go to church twice a week, raise their kids to pray and find God, but somehow think YOU'RE the bat shit crazy person when you start breaking down their religious claims and ultimately they sort of back out of the discussion. Similar to raising a concern to the nearest wall and it's not because you've hit a nerve but moreso because they just don't really care THAT much.

I think religion NEEDS these moderates to be moderate and respond just as my hypothetical douchebag would respond. Moderates are enablers. Followers. As I addressed in my open apology post, I'm not gunning for these types and understand in some cases their need to "play Chess" when de-converting from their religious belief, but I think conversations need to be had with the moderate religious tactfully. Ultimately moderate believers need to be challenged... if they want to be religious then get off the fence and be religious. You are either a part of the problem or a part of the solution.


Your whole theory is based on the idea that a person can be responsible for the actions of another person.

A parent responsible for their child? Sure.

A practitioner of a religion (however misguided) responsible for another practitioner?

Nope.

Not buying that idea.

.......................................

The difference between prayer and masturbation - is when a guy is through masturbating - he has something to show for his efforts.
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27-01-2015, 05:05 PM
RE: Moderates - the REAL problem?
(27-01-2015 04:24 PM)dirtstar Wrote:  So what say you? Are moderates THE issue? Are moderates protecting the crazy fundamental believers and thus keeping religion alive?
That is a considerably serious claim, so I expect you have some proof that moderates really are keeping fundamentalism alive. Without a doubt moderates are religious and keep their religion going, but to say they are backing up fundies, while not necessarily untrue in some circumstances, is an inconsiderate claim at best because it dismisses the fact many moderates openly oppose fundamentalists and consider them a cancer.
Quote:While it may seem that the fundamentalists are the true cancer, I still have an issue with the downplaying that goes on in the civilized arena. Trying to debate a moderate American Christian can be frustrating because some of them think you're being dramatic. It's almost as if they are saying "Dude... relax. Religion, church, and all that shit is just whatever". "Stop watching ISIS coverage." Huh Many of these types you'll find in America's suburbs for example. They go to church twice a week, raise their kids to pray and find God, but somehow think YOU'RE the bat shit crazy person when you start breaking down their religious claims and ultimately they sort of back out of the discussion. Similar to raising a concern to the nearest wall and it's not because you've hit a nerve but moreso because they just don't really care THAT much.
This may be true for moderate American Christians but it only proves that they are Christians and obviously interested in preserving their beliefs and dismissing positions that deny their god. This does not prove moderates are as bad as fundies or that they are backing them up

Quote:I think religion NEEDS these moderates to be moderate and respond just as my hypothetical douchebag would respond. Moderates are enablers. Followers. As I addressed in my open apology post, I'm not gunning for these types and understand in some cases their need to "play Chess" when de-converting from their religious belief, but I think conversations need to be had with the moderate religious tactfully. Ultimately moderate believers need to be challenged... if they want to be religious then get off the fence and be religious. You are either a part of the problem or a part of the solution.
I agree that moderates are not exempt from criticism - They still preach a belief that is most likely harmful and results in damage against people all around the globe. When I criticize a religion I am aiming everyone who is a part of that cult, whether it's the pope, a fundie or your average pseudo-intellectual liberal Christian

However, my opinion on moderates is that it's not really relevant if they are assuming a rational position or not, but rather the fact that they are probably not as harmful and most likely more open minded than fundies. If a Christian is pro-choice, pro-gay marriage, even if that implies cherry-picking verses, I can't really complain that "They still are religious" because it's a positive benefit for society and ultimately freedom of religion exists and it is a fundamental Human right.

I think moderates are a transitional group of people between fundamentalists and agnostic religious theists, until eventually some of them or their successors start to become agnostics and the process continues until it reaches atheism.

I'm interested in knowing specifically why do you think moderates are allowing fundies to exist... Considering that, regardless of moderates existing or not, fundies will continue to push out their agenda by all means necessary; the vision that the sudden disappearance of moderates would make fundamentalists fade way is, in my opinion, a naive and uninformed one.

Ultimately, we could argue that moderates may not be "good" preachers and followers of god because they tend to cherry-pick, you can't be a moderate without cherry-picking, but even so that is not really relevant to me - I care about results most of all, and if all religious people were open minded and not irrational, I wouldn't mind that they held on to their beliefs infinitely.

"A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything" - Friedrich Nietzsche
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27-01-2015, 06:08 PM
RE: Moderates - the REAL problem?
Moderates lend the image of legitimacy to a religion and its 'holy' books, creed, etc. It provides the more extreme believers a veneer of respectability; it enables them.

If moderates want some respect, they need to disavow the fundamentalists and extremists.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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27-01-2015, 06:21 PM
RE: Moderates - the REAL problem?
Moderates and liberals don't need to "moderate" they need to stand with all sane people and tell the nuts they cannot use a book to justify oppressive laws and or violence.

That is not one religion, that is all religions. The part well intended moderates and liberals fail to understand is that the ones who use laws and or violence to oppress use the very same holy books with the very same words they use.

ALL religions must be treated as a poison. Not as act of hate, but an acceptance that they are divisive. To ignore religion is like leaving a campfire unattended.

Religion is a result of human gap filling. It allows for group survival, but that idea they center around can be completely false. It pits in groups vs out groups, and even causes divisions within the same label.

We cannot be stuck in the news cycle in understanding this. Like volcanos, some are dormant while others are currently more active. Because our species history has always involved this gap filling, it is not about one label. It isn't a matter of forcing religion out of existence by government. It is challenging those in religion to understand that no one group is the center of the planet or universe.

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28-01-2015, 06:17 AM
RE: Moderates - the REAL problem?
(27-01-2015 06:08 PM)Chas Wrote:  Moderates lend the image of legitimacy to a religion and its 'holy' books, creed, etc. It provides the more extreme believers a veneer of respectability; it enables them.

If moderates want some respect, they need to disavow the fundamentalists and extremists.

The problem is, many of them see it as a slippery slope. They're afraid if they speak out against fundamentalism and take action against it, that they'll be next on the chopping block. So they end up just shaking their head a bit mumbling something about the first amendment.
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28-01-2015, 11:56 AM
RE: Moderates - the REAL problem?
(27-01-2015 04:24 PM)dirtstar Wrote:  So what say you? Are moderates THE issue? Are moderates protecting the crazy fundamental believers and thus keeping religion alive?

Before you auto-answer "Hell no they aren't that's ridiculous" I would cautiously consider a closer look.

While it may seem that the fundamentalists are the true cancer, I still have an issue with the downplaying that goes on in the civilized arena. Trying to debate a moderate American Christian can be frustrating because some of them think you're being dramatic. It's almost as if they are saying "Dude... relax. Religion, church, and all that shit is just whatever". "Stop watching ISIS coverage." Huh Many of these types you'll find in America's suburbs for example. They go to church twice a week, raise their kids to pray and find God, but somehow think YOU'RE the bat shit crazy person when you start breaking down their religious claims and ultimately they sort of back out of the discussion. Similar to raising a concern to the nearest wall and it's not because you've hit a nerve but moreso because they just don't really care THAT much.

I think religion NEEDS these moderates to be moderate and respond just as my hypothetical douchebag would respond. Moderates are enablers. Followers. As I addressed in my open apology post, I'm not gunning for these types and understand in some cases their need to "play Chess" when de-converting from their religious belief, but I think conversations need to be had with the moderate religious tactfully. Ultimately moderate believers need to be challenged... if they want to be religious then get off the fence and be religious. You are either a part of the problem or a part of the solution.

I agree in essence with your post. "Moderate" muslims are so moderate that they rarely stand out to condemn terrorists. "Moderate" Christians ruin it for us fundies and I wish they would all go all the way to atheism to stop making stinks in the name of Jesus!

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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28-01-2015, 05:04 PM
RE: Moderates - the REAL problem?
Blackout
Quote:I'm interested in knowing specifically why do you think moderates are allowing fundies to exist... Considering that, regardless of moderates existing or not, fundies will continue to push out their agenda by all means necessary; the vision that the sudden disappearance of moderates would make fundamentalists fade way is, in my opinion, a naive and uninformed one.

"I'm interested in knowing specifically why do you think moderates are allowing fundies to exist..."

The same way a friend who uses drugs excessively and hangs out and is associated with you, a friend who uses drugs moderately, can exist/blend in without his or her problem being under the microscope.

With moderates in the picture, you can't just call a spade a spade and say "Clearly religious people are nuts."

You say.. "SOME religious people are nuts."

Therein lies the problem. It's almost as if the moderates protect the fundamentalists by association. It doesn't matter how many moderates come out and say "That fundie is a nut job!" If it's true that the fundamental religious are typically singled out from the moderate, then it's not far fetched to assume without moderates the fundies could be seen as more of a cancer to society than they are today. After all there really should only be fundamental religious people and no moderates if you truly follow the bible.

Sure the fundie's will continue to push their holy agendas but without moderates the majority will pass them off as crazy's. If there were only atheists and the fundamental religious you in all seriousness would only have two groups... the sane and the insane. At least by today's standards. Thumbsup

Once you're honest with yourself about religion it's clear that everyone would be better off if it didn't exist. I think it's easy to analyze the behaviors of a fundie and come to this conclusion but far more convoluted when analyzing the behaviors of a moderate. Why? Well that's the crazy part... as you pointed out.. they're basically closet agnostics and not true Christians, Muslims, etc. Do you really think a religious person who cherry picks what they want while technically sinning is a real religious person? I don't.
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28-01-2015, 06:08 PM
RE: Moderates - the REAL problem?
Quote:The same way a friend who uses drugs excessively and hangs out and is associated with you, a friend who uses drugs moderately, can exist/blend in without his or her problem being under the microscope.

This is a very poor analogy. Equating moderates with drug addicts is a bad example and doesn't really explain anything.
Quote:With moderates in the picture, you can't just call a spade a spade and say "Clearly religious people are nuts."

You say.. "SOME religious people are nuts."
Being nuts or crazy is a considerable characteristic to possess and it needs to be diagnosed. I don't think someone is nuts just because by chance they happen to be raised Christians and believe half of what the bible says. But I think we have a different concept of moderates. In my country, moderates are the ones who never go to church and only remember to pray when their life is getting harder or when it's Christmas

Quote:Therein lies the problem. It's almost as if the moderates protect the fundamentalists by association. It doesn't matter how many moderates come out and say "That fundie is a nut job!" If it's true that the fundamental religious are typically singled out from the moderate, then it's not far fetched to assume without moderates the fundies could be seen as more of a cancer to society than they are today. After all there really should only be fundamental religions people and no moderates if you truly follow the bible.
Being a moderate is an irrational position if you choose to follow the bible, but still, what makes you think fundies are still not considered a cancer? How many people support, for example, the Westboro Baptist Church (including Christians)? - With Muslims the numbers become a little more complicated to determine

Quote:Sure the fundie's will continue to push their holy agendas but without moderates the majority will pass them off as crazy's. If there were only atheists and the fundamental religious you in all seriousness would only have two groups... the sane and the insane. At least by today's standards. Thumbsup
True, but the fundies are already considered crazy by most society, few people really like fundies, it's not like they are getting collectively praised. You cannot equate the world as a division simply between atheists and fundamentalist religious people, that's a bad starting point and there's much more complexity in it; there's liberal religious people, deists, those who are simply agnostics, atheists who are religious, panteists, etc...
Quote:Once you're honest with yourself about religion it's clear that everyone would be better off if it didn't exist. I think it's easy to analyze the behaviors of a fundie and come to this conclusion but far more convoluted when analyzing the behaviors of a moderate. Why? Well that's the crazy part... as you pointed out.. they're basically closet agnostics and not true Christians, Muslims, etc. Do you really think a religious person who cherry picks what they want while technically sinning is a real religious person? I don't.
I agree with this. But I don't think they are less Christian, technically to be a Christian you need to follow Jesus, at least that's what my former Christian mother says, but of course you can be a bad Christian if you follow the bible poorly or wrongly. Not to mention Christians themselves disagree with each other when it comes to interpretation, choosing sides - There are Christians who are pro-LGBT and pro-choice, pro premarital sex, and others who condemn all of these things.

A friend of mine defined moderates really well - It's when you pick only some parts of a religion to adapt yourself to the evolution of human societies and your personal morality/conscience.

"A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything" - Friedrich Nietzsche
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28-01-2015, 06:50 PM
RE: Moderates - the REAL problem?
(27-01-2015 04:24 PM)dirtstar Wrote:  So what say you? Are moderates THE issue? Are moderates protecting the crazy fundamental believers and thus keeping religion alive?

Before you auto-answer "Hell no they aren't that's ridiculous" I would cautiously consider a closer look.

While it may seem that the fundamentalists are the true cancer, I still have an issue with the downplaying that goes on in the civilized arena. Trying to debate a moderate American Christian can be frustrating because some of them think you're being dramatic. It's almost as if they are saying "Dude... relax. Religion, church, and all that shit is just whatever". "Stop watching ISIS coverage." Huh Many of these types you'll find in America's suburbs for example. They go to church twice a week, raise their kids to pray and find God, but somehow think YOU'RE the bat shit crazy person when you start breaking down their religious claims and ultimately they sort of back out of the discussion. Similar to raising a concern to the nearest wall and it's not because you've hit a nerve but moreso because they just don't really care THAT much.

I think religion NEEDS these moderates to be moderate and respond just as my hypothetical douchebag would respond. Moderates are enablers. Followers. As I addressed in my open apology post, I'm not gunning for these types and understand in some cases their need to "play Chess" when de-converting from their religious belief, but I think conversations need to be had with the moderate religious tactfully. Ultimately moderate believers need to be challenged... if they want to be religious then get off the fence and be religious. You are either a part of the problem or a part of the solution.

"Moderate" in Western countries is one thing. "Moderate" in the Arab world is something else altogether. Many would be surprised to find out what percentage of the population of Arab Muslim countries support Osama bin Laden, the 9/11 attacks, execution of apostates, execution of homosexuals, the flogging of rape victims, suicide bombings, and so forth. al-Jazera, Pew Research and others have been conducting Muslim opinion polls of the population of predominately Muslim countries.
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