Mohammed The Person.
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07-01-2012, 06:02 PM
Mohammed The Person.
Given the latest posts regarding islam i wanted to open a new thread regarding Mohamed the prohpet of islam.

To start off heres a quote from HoC in the "Science is a Religion" post:

"And it is not exaclty the pinnacle of moral clarity to insult a man's identifiers. In the conext of his culture Mohammed was a good man and Islam a good thing; for its first two centuries it was the flower of the east. While you do not have to respect this, it helps to note it is worthy of respect."

Well to start off i want to say that my secular view of mohammed would be this:
He was a historical figure and a human, imperfect and prone to error and bad judgement even cruelty,
to accuratly judge the content of his character one must look at his sayings, his actions and his lifestyle.

All historical figures have done good and bad, everyone makes mistakes,
Washington kept slaves, Julius Ceaser ended roman democracy, etc.

The following are historical Facts according to the narrations of the Hadith (a series of accounts of mohammeds sayings and actions that are deemed reliable by muslims in their accuracy), some of them are also backed up by Quranic verses that promote or condemn certain behaviours:

1- Mohammed the pedophile, He married a 7 year old girl and consumated at 9, he was 51/54 during the time of consumation (depending on accounts).

2- Mohammed the proponent of slavery, while he bought and freed many slaves from the polytheistic meccans it was strategic to turn them against their former masters. There are no verses in the quraan or any hadiths which prohibit slavery, but there are infact many that dictate the rules of owning slaves. In islam a man is allowed to keep a slave woman and use her sexually, there are also special rules dictated for this.

3- Mohammed the anti-freedom of religion(-ist?), he advocated the killing of heathens that dont convert, and the submission of christians and jews making them pay special taxes "Gizya" and the teachings of islam generally prohobit them the building of new places of worship.

4- Mohammed the warmonger, he sent out armies of conversion after he conquored Medina and Mecca against the Byzantiums and Persians. The taking of war booty and slaves from war, after his death, the islamic empire spread by war with a surrender, convert or fight method.

5- Mohammed the oppressor of women, as evidenced by the teachings of quraan and hadith, veiling women to force their social conformity, giving them unequal inheritence, making them the properties of their Fathers/husbands/male family members, allowing men to keep up to 4 wives and concubines on the side. The teachings of islam also prohibit women from performing any worship or fast when they are menstruating because they are considered unclean. Wife beating in islam is not only allowed but considered necessary and there are rules in the islamic teachings he left behind that dictate how to correctly beat your wife. Marital rape is also not forbidden.

6- Mohammed the fearmonger, fear of hell, fear of apostasy, fear of cruel punishments that dont fit the crime.

7- Mohammed the unjust and intolerant, punishments that dont fit the crime include but not limited to, beheading for apostasy, cutting hands for theft, whipping for false witness and drinking alchohol, stoning of homosexuals, stoning of adulterers and so on.

8- Mohammed the plagiariser, takes stories from jewish and christian origins and repeating them with very small alterations, stories of Moses, Noah, Jesus, Job, Abraham, Adam and Eve.

9- Mohammed the mass murderer, slaughtering of Banu Qurayza a jewish tribe in Medina, Death toll: 900, slaves and prisoners taken, properties and lands seized.

10- Mohammed the polygamous, He had a total of 11-13 wives and kept concubines alongside them. He forbade all his wives from remarrying after he died.

Just some of the few uncommendable character contents of Mohammed from the current historical records and revered scripture and hadiths.
Does this seem like a person to look up to? maybe, if u only consider the good things hes done and ignore the bad.
Is he infallible? definitely not.

But one could consider that the policies he put into effect were revolutionary and good for the time. But that doesn't mean they
should be immune to criticism and condemnation, how he taught that wives should be beaten lightly as to leave no marks and no bones should be broken, no blood should be let, wife-beating as a concept is still a sick idea.

Just like someone can look up to George Washington's "the man who would not be king" situation and look down on his slave-owning.
Does he deserve respect for his legacy? yes, he is the founder of one of the greatest nations.

What about Mohammed's legacy? most muslims take it literal, the good with the bad or make excuses for it.
Or moderate muslims that ignore the bad.
Look at his legacy now, in Iran, Afghanistan and other muslim countries.
Does Mohammed deserve respect? in my opinion, no.
Is it immoral to insult him? Is it moral to insult Stalin, Polpot or Saddam Hussein?

What do you guys think?

"Yeah, good idea. Make them buy your invisible apple. Insist that they do. Market it properly and don't stop until they pay for it." -Malleus
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07-01-2012, 07:01 PM
RE: Mohammed The Person.
You're just jealous you ain't got it like the Prophet. Big Grin

Notice a whole bunch of emotionally charged identifiers, but you got the story straight. People are people. I like him, you don't; there it is. There is no capital Good capital Evil in play, even this evil one (me) is most often seen otherwise.

Obviously you do not use the unholy algebra; like if I substitute extant variables like "Mohammed" with "my Gwynnies," I can understand what makes people uptight. This is from a person understanding people; cant even justify my love of Gwyneth so don't think I'm justifying shit. I'm offering perspective.

I am often seen as moral. Am I gonna insult Gwyneth? Fuck no. Am I gonna like it when others do? Fuck no. Can someone get killed over this shit? Fuck ya. Extremely unlikely, but I got no need to shade the truth. People that do not realize their own potential for infamy either shade the truth or lack passion.

In terms of naive philosophy, those who do not see killing as a moral imperative fail to realize killing is an evolutionary imperative. Of course there's a fucking link; the link everybody seems to avoid is love to morality. Gwyneth ain't killing nobody but my love of that girl is capable of all kinds of infamy.

Therefore one must look to ethical considerations in terms of civilization; and what is distinctly lacking is the existence of a global civilization. The ethical standard of the west is often reflected in the morality of the westerner; so many are willing to jump on the absolutist bandwagon without even realizing what they are doing.

Killing, is what they are doing. Those who insist, "that is just wrong" are actually saying "I will kill that." Wise up.

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07-01-2012, 07:14 PM
RE: Mohammed The Person.
i agree that i have some judgemental emotion involved in the OP.
if you substitute the word mohammed, with a random fictional character of "King Bartholemue"
does King Bartholemue deserve to be commended?
and keep in mind its not just killing, its torture, mutilation, injustice and discrimination among other things,
and these teachings still survive today, these are not good conditions to live in.
The fact that people consider these rules holy and unalterable is also an issue i was trying to address,
a good system is when policies and rules are examined, debated and reconsidered, possibly changed
to further better the conditions of human life.

"Yeah, good idea. Make them buy your invisible apple. Insist that they do. Market it properly and don't stop until they pay for it." -Malleus
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07-01-2012, 11:17 PM
RE: Mohammed The Person.
Are you looking for ethical conformation for your moral bias? Do you need other people to tell you that you are doing the right thing? You are trying to dictate policy for humanity.

OK policymaker, kill me for my Gwynnies. Heart

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08-01-2012, 12:03 AM
RE: Mohammed The Person.
(07-01-2012 11:17 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  Are you looking for ethical conformation for your moral bias? Do you need other people to tell you that you are doing the right thing? You are trying to dictate policy for humanity.

OK policymaker, kill me for my Gwynnies. Heart

I did no such thing, im simply providing evidence that mohammed and his legacy, according to historical accounts and scripture, was a wicked influence on humanity, and trying to inform generally about mohammed. And im saying that he should be judged based on his actions and sayings just like any historical character should be judged.
dictate policy? i seem to recall saying that policy should not be dictated nor set in stone it should be discussed and debated and refined and considered regarding its social impact and impact on the indivisual.

"Yeah, good idea. Make them buy your invisible apple. Insist that they do. Market it properly and don't stop until they pay for it." -Malleus
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08-01-2012, 05:42 AM
RE: Mohammed The Person.
Muhammed as a person is dead now. Probably wouldn't have liked him when he was alive. It's his nutty followers that I have a problem with. The guys who will take sayings by some thousand year dead man and live their lives by them.

I wouldn't judge him for his stuff - he's dead, the wives are dead, he changed history but so did Genghis Khan. We just accept that those guys lived in savage times and would have seen nothing wrong with the stuff we see as wrong. But letting that long ago fucked up time dictate how we think now... that's bullshit.
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09-01-2012, 12:12 AM
RE: Mohammed The Person.
These may seem like terrible things to you, jackrabbit (and they seem pretty terrible to me too!), but aren't they in line with Muslim ideals? Maybe I just have a very pessimistic view of Islam.

I love the analogy with George Washington. He wasn't perfect, but we tend to give him a pass on the bad stuff and remember only the good things. The New Testament describes Jesus as a violent man in one situation where he attacked money-changers in the temple with a whip. No matter what the reason, none of us would condone a person for attacking unarmed people with a weapon. But people who love and respect Jesus are quite willing to overlook this incident and just focus on the positive events.

My girlfriend is mad at me. Perhaps I shouldn't have tried cooking a stick in her non-stick pan.
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09-01-2012, 10:21 AM
RE: Mohammed The Person.
(09-01-2012 12:12 AM)Starcrash Wrote:  These may seem like terrible things to you, jackrabbit (and they seem pretty terrible to me too!), but aren't they in line with Muslim ideals? Maybe I just have a very pessimistic view of Islam.

The thing about muslim ideals is that they are presented like a turd baked in a cake
Preachers and scholars rarely address these issues and when they do they are
super careful to point out extreme circumstances and questionable justifications coupled with
a "only allah knows" and "Allah says it we do it, no questions asked" mentality
the former being a popular saying by all muslims especially arabs
"allahu a3lam" even im having trouble letting go of it because its so
integrated in my vocabulary among with
loads of other muslim sayings that no atheist in his right mind would say.

but back to mohammed, the problem isnt because they take the good and
ignore the bad, its because they're not even aware that theres any bad,
to them mohammed was the perfect human being, infallible and every good
muslim should do his best to be like him in every way (as described in the Hadith)

"Yeah, good idea. Make them buy your invisible apple. Insist that they do. Market it properly and don't stop until they pay for it." -Malleus
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09-01-2012, 11:50 AM
RE: Mohammed The Person.
(09-01-2012 10:21 AM)Jackrabbit Wrote:  The thing about muslim ideals is that they are presented like a turd baked in a cake

You have a way with analogies. Wink

(09-01-2012 10:21 AM)Jackrabbit Wrote:  but back to mohammed, the problem isnt because they take the good and
ignore the bad, its because they're not even aware that theres any bad,

That may very well be the case. In my own experience (with Christians) nearly 100% of their education comes from talking with their peers ("fellowship") and Sunday morning sermons. For instance, how many Christians know about the textual problems with the story of Jesus and the adulteress (specifically its lack of attachment to a specific place in the bible)? I'll tell you - very, very few.

My girlfriend is mad at me. Perhaps I shouldn't have tried cooking a stick in her non-stick pan.
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