Molestation
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15-10-2016, 02:05 PM
RE: Molestation
(14-10-2016 08:55 AM)Dom Wrote:  I am putting this thread in politics because of the current relevance, but I meant to start it long ago. I do NOT want it to turn into a Trump bashing thread, we got enough of those. I want to explore molestation.

I will omit the worst to save myself and maybe others here from the possibility of PTSD, but it happened.

I have been groped and worse without consent several times in my life. The first time it was a cousin. I went to grandma and told her. She said that it was the lot of women to bear. Men were just men and could not control themselves. At least it showed me that I was pretty and desirable. That was all she had to say.

Four times a man exposed himself to me - once in Rumania, once in Greece and twice in the US.

Once a woman let her robe fall open and displayed herself to me. So there is that, too. She was a person who had hired me as tutor....way back when.

I was groped in a street car.

I was fondled while sleeping (pretended not to wake up) by a travelling minister in Ibiza (Spanish isle) who had invited me and my friends to dinner with him and his wife and kids on his boat. They then invited us to spend the night. I had felt safe because the family was on the boat...

There are more stories to tell. Some I just repressed and only remember moments.

Now, I am older. I don't know if subsequent generations of women experienced the same. For me and my Grandma (and likely my mom) it was normal. And scary. And inevitable.

As far as the relevance to politics - I think that a lot of women remembered their experiences with molesters when the Trump tape showed and that it was his final blow for that reason.

I say enough is enough with the groping. If I had had the same experience back then as I do now, I would have raised hell. But I was young and inexperienced and grandma said it was normal...

Good post. Thanks for sharing

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15-10-2016, 02:21 PM
RE: Molestation
(15-10-2016 01:43 PM)epronovost Wrote:  Of course, sex is the only way to pass your genes when it comes to reproduction. Its indeed to first thing that needs to be done, but our instinct of reproduction doesn't stop there and isn't limited to it. Wanting to reproduce isn't just wanting to have sex, it can also be wanting to have kids.

Well there is a reason some kids are called mistakes. Big Grin


(15-10-2016 01:43 PM)epronovost Wrote:  Indeed, we agree on this too. In the same fashion, its not because sex has a use for reproduction that it's its only role or even an important role in cases of sexual assaults and harrassment.

Well by default reproduction is the most important role, but it might not be the exact reason. Like eating. Eating is used for bonding and sometimes the first thing we think of when we see food is taste, but the role will always be energy.

Even still, sexual assault still can't be justified.


(15-10-2016 01:43 PM)epronovost Wrote:  The comparison with the prank might not have been the best. Groping isn't a joke. Its something that people do because they find it exciting and pleasant (its a sexual game). Many gropers are sexualy active people. Many of them have regular sexual partners. Unlike rapists, gropers are much more varied in terms of psychological profile. Some do it indeed to aliveate sexual frustration, but not all, not even most. Some do it on impulse, other "just for fun" and others to assert their power and authority (or gain status).

Yeah that was pretty much my only problem. I should look into these profiles, maybe cross examine them with other animals to understand the cause of it.


(15-10-2016 01:43 PM)epronovost Wrote:  This is demonstrably wrong. People of all size, appereance and age have been groped. Those who are the most likely to be groped are teenagers and young adults, but, much like rape, anybody can and have been a target. Its not even that rare. Sexual abuse on elderly people are simply not as frequently reported by media and elders themselves have very few ways to report and talk about this issue unlike young adults. In fact, poor, fat, ugly people are much more vulnerable to sexual harrassment and groping than healthy, rich and pretty people since the former are much less likely to turn around and confront the gropper than the later (those groping for status also do it to humiliate their victims).

I fucked up on this one, because I should have said nobody gropes anyone they are not attracted to, as people are attracted to different things.


(15-10-2016 01:43 PM)epronovost Wrote:  While I agree with your intent and find it very wise, the complicated thing with that is that there is so much variable and such diversity in the gropers/pervs, both in terms of motives and justifications, (if you excuse the term) population that trying to reduce it to its most fundamental principles will lead faulty generalisation.

Well at the end of the day most people just want to release their sexual frustration. The reason this works is because looking at humans as what they are animals, is better than looking at them as something else. Now in the animal kingdom, nothing is 100% in all behaviors. Some times female humans are stronger than male humans, sometimes male lions help the pride in the hunt, and there is a species of jumping spider where the male is larger than the female. Now even though it does have to do with wanting sex, there are more factors that should be considered with it. So I can see your point.

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15-10-2016, 03:03 PM (This post was last modified: 15-10-2016 03:06 PM by Dom.)
RE: Molestation
(15-10-2016 02:21 PM)Metazoa Zeke Wrote:  
(15-10-2016 01:43 PM)epronovost Wrote:  Of course, sex is the only way to pass your genes when it comes to reproduction. Its indeed to first thing that needs to be done, but our instinct of reproduction doesn't stop there and isn't limited to it. Wanting to reproduce isn't just wanting to have sex, it can also be wanting to have kids.

Well there is a reason some kids are called mistakes. Big Grin


(15-10-2016 01:43 PM)epronovost Wrote:  Indeed, we agree on this too. In the same fashion, its not because sex has a use for reproduction that it's its only role or even an important role in cases of sexual assaults and harrassment.

Well by default reproduction is the most important role, but it might not be the exact reason. Like eating. Eating is used for bonding and sometimes the first thing we think of when we see food is taste, but the role will always be energy.

Even still, sexual assault still can't be justified.


(15-10-2016 01:43 PM)epronovost Wrote:  The comparison with the prank might not have been the best. Groping isn't a joke. Its something that people do because they find it exciting and pleasant (its a sexual game). Many gropers are sexualy active people. Many of them have regular sexual partners. Unlike rapists, gropers are much more varied in terms of psychological profile. Some do it indeed to aliveate sexual frustration, but not all, not even most. Some do it on impulse, other "just for fun" and others to assert their power and authority (or gain status).

Yeah that was pretty much my only problem. I should look into these profiles, maybe cross examine them with other animals to understand the cause of it.


(15-10-2016 01:43 PM)epronovost Wrote:  This is demonstrably wrong. People of all size, appereance and age have been groped. Those who are the most likely to be groped are teenagers and young adults, but, much like rape, anybody can and have been a target. Its not even that rare. Sexual abuse on elderly people are simply not as frequently reported by media and elders themselves have very few ways to report and talk about this issue unlike young adults. In fact, poor, fat, ugly people are much more vulnerable to sexual harrassment and groping than healthy, rich and pretty people since the former are much less likely to turn around and confront the gropper than the later (those groping for status also do it to humiliate their victims).

I fucked up on this one, because I should have said nobody gropes anyone they are not attracted to, as people are attracted to different things.


(15-10-2016 01:43 PM)epronovost Wrote:  While I agree with your intent and find it very wise, the complicated thing with that is that there is so much variable and such diversity in the gropers/pervs, both in terms of motives and justifications, (if you excuse the term) population that trying to reduce it to its most fundamental principles will lead faulty generalisation.

Well at the end of the day most people just want to release their sexual frustration. The reason this works is because looking at humans as what they are animals, is better than looking at them as something else. Now in the animal kingdom, nothing is 100% in all behaviors. Some times female humans are stronger than male humans, sometimes male lions help the pride in the hunt, and there is a species of jumping spider where the male is larger than the female. Now even though it does have to do with wanting sex, there are more factors that should be considered with it. So I can see your point.

Groping and rape are not at all about sex. They are all about power. That's why it can and does happen to anyone, either sex, young or old, fat or skinny, pretty or ugly. It simply doesn't matter.

In the case of catcalling it's often (not always) some kind of male comradery and showing off to each other. In that case, usually the young and pretty are targeted, can't impress anyone with your sexuality with an old and ugly target.

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15-10-2016, 03:07 PM (This post was last modified: 15-10-2016 03:16 PM by Metazoa Zeke.)
RE: Molestation
(15-10-2016 03:03 PM)Dom Wrote:  Catcalling, groping and rape are not at all about sex. They are all about power.

I can't agree with that, and that is because most people who rape do it because they really want sex. Hell a lot of times it is with a person who has blacked out.

Groping is just being a pervert and lusting for someone sexually

and catcalling, well that is just some crass person who doesn't understand saying nice ass is not a way to get a date.

You also assume that even if power is involved, it doesn't have to be the major reason.

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15-10-2016, 03:52 PM
RE: Molestation
(15-10-2016 03:07 PM)Metazoa Zeke Wrote:  
(15-10-2016 03:03 PM)Dom Wrote:  Catcalling, groping and rape are not at all about sex. They are all about power.

I can't agree with that, and that is because most people who rape do it because they really want sex. Hell a lot of times it is with a person who has blacked out.

Groping is just being a pervert and lusting for someone sexually

and catcalling, well that is just some crass person who doesn't understand saying nice ass is not a way to get a date.

You also assume that even if power is involved, it doesn't have to be the major reason.

Quote:Myth: The primary motive for rape is impulsive sexual desire.
Fact: Studies show that the major motive for rape is power, not sex. Sex is used as a weapon to inflict pain, violence and humiliation. Most rapists appear to have normal personalities with an abnormal tendency to be aggressive and violent. Between 2/3 and 3/4 of sexual assaults are planned in advance.

https://www.mnsu.edu/varp/assault/myths.html

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16-10-2016, 03:38 AM
RE: Molestation
(15-10-2016 03:52 PM)Dom Wrote:  
Quote:Myth: The primary motive for rape is impulsive sexual desire.
Fact: Studies show that the major motive for rape is power, not sex. Sex is used as a weapon to inflict pain, violence and humiliation. Most rapists appear to have normal personalities with an abnormal tendency to be aggressive and violent. Between 2/3 and 3/4 of sexual assaults are planned in advance.

https://www.mnsu.edu/varp/assault/myths.html

Link to the actual studies in question?
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16-10-2016, 04:35 AM
RE: Molestation
(15-10-2016 03:52 PM)Dom Wrote:  
(15-10-2016 03:07 PM)Metazoa Zeke Wrote:  I can't agree with that, and that is because most people who rape do it because they really want sex. Hell a lot of times it is with a person who has blacked out.

Groping is just being a pervert and lusting for someone sexually

and catcalling, well that is just some crass person who doesn't understand saying nice ass is not a way to get a date.

You also assume that even if power is involved, it doesn't have to be the major reason.

Quote:Myth: The primary motive for rape is impulsive sexual desire.
Fact: Studies show that the major motive for rape is power, not sex. Sex is used as a weapon to inflict pain, violence and humiliation. Most rapists appear to have normal personalities with an abnormal tendency to be aggressive and violent. Between 2/3 and 3/4 of sexual assaults are planned in advance.

https://www.mnsu.edu/varp/assault/myths.html

I would like to add that number one again uses the 1/5 rape statistic which is wrong, and B. I would also like to see the study as well.

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16-10-2016, 06:51 AM
RE: Molestation
(16-10-2016 04:35 AM)Metazoa Zeke Wrote:  
(15-10-2016 03:52 PM)Dom Wrote:  https://www.mnsu.edu/varp/assault/myths.html

I would like to add that number one again uses the 1/5 rape statistic which is wrong, and B. I would also like to see the study as well.

As usual, wiki links to dozens of studies here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_sexual_violence

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16-10-2016, 11:32 AM (This post was last modified: 16-10-2016 03:35 PM by epronovost.)
RE: Molestation
(16-10-2016 06:51 AM)Dom Wrote:  
(16-10-2016 04:35 AM)Metazoa Zeke Wrote:  I would like to add that number one again uses the 1/5 rape statistic which is wrong, and B. I would also like to see the study as well.

As usual, wiki links to dozens of studies here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_sexual_violence

Actually, for the benefit of the discussion, I read again my notes on the subject and it seems this is mostly a sementic debate. Only men rapists assaulting women have been extansively studied and, most often than not, their were of the minority of stanger rapists. Those rapists are motivated by both hatred, desire for dominance and sexual gratification. Social environment, tradition and perception of rape can also influence rapists motivations and behavior. There is also dozens of type of rapist, some with a long history of sexual abnormalities (AKA weird fetish), other with an historic of violence or substance abuse in their childhood, some other with antisocial tendencies and even some with absolutly nothing apparently clearly abnormal. Almost all of them express a moderate to high level of contempt, resentment and hatred toward women. Peer preassure and strong adherance to traditional gender roles are frequently cited as strong enabler of sexual violence toward women (but also non conformist men like homosexual).

I found this article to cover well this conundrum.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the...rol-or-sex

It seems that depending on the type of rape, it may be considered motivated by sexual desire or by a desire to control women. In some cases, it could be both and it could be almost impossible to distingish one from the other. Its not a case of one theory is more correct than the other, but each theory applies best to one specific type of rapist and one specific type of rape.

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17-10-2016, 09:25 AM
RE: Molestation
(15-10-2016 08:40 AM)Metazoa Zeke Wrote:  Again I do agree that the man following her was creppy, yet again anyone following anyone is really creepy. Again I am not saying molestation and catcalling is good, but a bunch of people saying hello isn't harassment. Do you expect that men never speak or say hello to someone they find attractive?
The point you are missing is these guys aren't saying hello at all. Hello is when you're at a party and everyone there knows people are going to meet people. So you see an attractive woman and you walk up and say hello in order to introduce yourself. However, when a woman is walking by a man on the street, he doesn't know her and will likely never see her again, her non-verbals are screaming "I'm not interacting with anyone right now" because she is focused looking forward and walking quickly, any guy who then says "hello" anyway, isn't merely introducing himself. He already knows they aren't going to get acquainted or go on a date. The hello really means "hey you piece of meat, I'm going to bother you with sexual innuendo because I find it fun and because I can". Anyone who thinks it means something else is naive.

Now, if that occurrence was a single isolated incident and no harm came of it, while it would still be sexual harassment, it probably wouldn't be worth complaining about. But, as the video shows, it's constant from many different men and it's obviously pervasive at least in some areas. You say "only 3 minutes out of 10". Well first of all that's 30% of the time and that's HUGE! Second, at least some of the other 7 minutes inevitably were street crossings or other areas where there probably weren't men hanging around. So, if we were to look at how many minutes were actually passing by men in range for comments, that percentage would be even higher.

And let's not forget, women grow up and spend their lives being constantly bombarded by messages from society and media that they are the weaker, inferior sex. To make matters worse, they actually are on the whole physically weaker and they know if a guy attacks them they are at a disadvantage. Guys, on the other hand are constantly bombarded with images of objectifying women which subconsciously practically gives permission for men to harass women the way we see in this video. "Oh they're just being men". Well, yeah from a man's perspective that may be how it seems, but on the receiving end it's completely different because it's a whole other perspective. It's belittling, disrespectful, incites fear, and whether you like it or not - it IS sexual harassment. And just because the majority may not intend to rape, that doesn't make it acceptable anymore than calling a black person the "N word" when there is no further intent to act. It's wrong all by itself.

I am not accountable to any God. I am accountable to myself - and not because I think I am God as some theists would try to assert - but because, no matter what actions I take, thoughts I think, or words I utter, I have to be able to live with myself.
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