Moral absolutes
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
23-03-2016, 11:15 AM
RE: Moral absolutes
(23-03-2016 11:12 AM)Matt Finney Wrote:  
(23-03-2016 11:11 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  Only in nominative moral manners. You just made a descriptive moral statement yourself just a couple posts back. When you analyize and view morality and discuss the potential outcomes in beyond just the right/wrong scope that morality also entails, you have more wiggling.

But that IS the problem of it being undefined. People just disregard that there are actually multiple meanings to these terms partially because they span millennia, culture, language, and field of study in terms of debate.

So you know of a moral statement that is true?

No but I know that all moral statements are false is a moral statement itself. Which is an amusing cycle of thought for a few seconds.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
23-03-2016, 11:17 AM
RE: Moral absolutes
(23-03-2016 11:01 AM)Matt Finney Wrote:  Whether they want to admit it or not, most atheists believe in objective morality.

On that view we are a unified front. The claim that morality is not objective, while at the same time arguing for just that.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
23-03-2016, 11:31 AM
RE: Moral absolutes
(23-03-2016 11:15 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  
(23-03-2016 11:12 AM)Matt Finney Wrote:  So you know of a moral statement that is true?

No but I know that all moral statements are false is a moral statement itself. Which is an amusing cycle of thought for a few seconds.

No it isn't. If I were to say "you should believe that all moral statements are untrue", that would be a moral statement.

I'm simply describing the universe we live in.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
23-03-2016, 11:43 AM
RE: Moral absolutes
(23-03-2016 11:31 AM)Matt Finney Wrote:  
(23-03-2016 11:15 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  No but I know that all moral statements are false is a moral statement itself. Which is an amusing cycle of thought for a few seconds.

No it isn't. If I were to say "you should believe that all moral statements are untrue", that would be a moral statement.

I'm simply describing the universe we live in.

The amusingness is clear as day here.

There are different forms of the term morality and ways to use it. Yes. It's not a Normative moral statement that you made, although it is still a descriptive morality statement.

I thought you were even the one who posted that link to the stanford site elaborating on differences of morality concepts and what moral statements are understood by. So it's just so fun to see it so clear here when you were saying how the moral word meanings are so clear while you're just ignoring the moral terms. It's clear if you only view the term moral how general topics talk about it our how religion talks about it. That's why it isn't a clear idea, because we aren't only that in topics. So when someone says that the definition of objective morality or descriptions of it aren't always clear it's because they're being aware of the multitude of ways these terms are actually being used on various contexts. Not just sticking to the one they think the topic must be about.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes ClydeLee's post
23-03-2016, 11:54 AM
RE: Moral absolutes
(23-03-2016 11:43 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  
(23-03-2016 11:31 AM)Matt Finney Wrote:  No it isn't. If I were to say "you should believe that all moral statements are untrue", that would be a moral statement.

I'm simply describing the universe we live in.

The amusingness is clear as day here.

There are different forms of the term morality and ways to use it. Yes. It's not a Normative moral statement that you made, although it is still a descriptive morality statement.

I thought you were even the one who posted that link to the stanford site elaborating on differences of morality concepts and what moral statements are understood by. So it's just so fun to see it so clear here when you were saying how the moral word meanings are so clear while you're just ignoring the moral terms. It's clear if you only view the term moral how general topics talk about it our how religion talks about it. That's why it isn't a clear idea, because we aren't only that in topics. So when someone says that the definition of objective morality or descriptions of it aren't always clear it's because they're being aware of the multitude of ways these terms are actually being used on various contexts. Not just sticking to the one they think the topic must be about.

This thread is speaking about morality in the normative sense. None of this would make sense, and no one would be arguing if we were talking about morality in the descriptive sense.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
23-03-2016, 11:55 AM
RE: Moral absolutes
I have no idea what we are talking about anymore.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes jason_delisle's post
23-03-2016, 11:57 AM
RE: Moral absolutes
(23-03-2016 11:55 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  I have no idea what we are talking about anymore.

lol! Just give us one true moral statement.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
23-03-2016, 12:05 PM
RE: Moral absolutes
(23-03-2016 11:57 AM)Matt Finney Wrote:  
(23-03-2016 11:55 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  I have no idea what we are talking about anymore.

lol! Just give us one true moral statement.
The moral of a story is a lesson, especially one concerning what is right or prudent, that can be derived from a story, or an experience.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes jason_delisle's post
23-03-2016, 12:46 PM
RE: Moral absolutes
(23-03-2016 11:00 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Is morality subjective then?

Obviously.

(23-03-2016 11:00 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Several posters here argued with me quite recently that morality isn't subjective either

Setting aside for the moment that you have a track record of grossly mischaracterizing everyone else's positions, I am not any other poster. I am myself.

(23-03-2016 11:00 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Factors like a core morality that seems to be consistent even in cross cultural studies, might for some be supportive of a view that morality is objective, and etc... You can dismissive of these factors, it would be even harder to use these factors in support of a view that morality is subjective.

No, it wouldn't.

Consensus morality is not objective morality.

(23-03-2016 11:06 AM)Matt Finney Wrote:  All moral statements are factually untrue.

Moral statements are value judgments. They are neither true nor false, except in the sense that the speaker may be lying about what they think.

I completely agree that there is no such thing as a factually true moral statement, but this is because the entire concept of applying truth values to opinions is essentially a category error. This is why I say that objective morality is not sufficiently defined; the concept as it stands is incoherent, and it requires a complete overhaul in order to be argued for in any way.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 4 users Like Unbeliever's post
23-03-2016, 01:33 PM
RE: Moral absolutes
(23-03-2016 12:46 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  
(23-03-2016 11:00 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Is morality subjective then?

Obviously.

(23-03-2016 11:00 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Several posters here argued with me quite recently that morality isn't subjective either

Setting aside for the moment that you have a track record of grossly mischaracterizing everyone else's positions, I am not any other poster. I am myself.

To quote Bucky: "Morality is complex. It arises from many sources, and is PROCESSED, IN EVERY CASE by human brains. There is nothing about that that is "objective". It also does not meet any definition of "subjective".

It's one thing for you to claim morality is subjective, it's another thing to claim it's obviously subjective, which judging from my previous conversations here, it's anything but.

But let ask a question. If I were to claim that torturing babies just for fun is objectively immoral, would I be wrong?

Or did I make a subjective claim, for which there is no right or wrong answers to?

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: