Moral or Ethical Dilemma's, Q & A's
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01-05-2016, 01:23 PM
RE: Moral or Ethical Dilemma's, Q & A's
(01-05-2016 10:18 AM)Heatheness Wrote:  
(01-05-2016 10:12 AM)Anjele Wrote:  When I first say the OP I thought...sell it...make a few bucks. If you are the only game in town, why not.

I have to rethink my views a little now. After being hit with two hailstorms in three weeks...the second one causing unbelievable damage, makes me ponder this a bit differently. While the people in my neighborhood were out trying to absorb the damage and devastation while also trying to clean up dangers in our yards and streets...there were people driving through the area in undamaged vehicles taking pictures and videos. Did any of them stop to offer assistance? No. They were clogging the streets and gawking at the scene and making it hard for help to arrive where needed. They weren't getting pictures of the storm itself...which was unbelievable to witness. What they were getting on film was damage...and the stunned looks on the faces of those of us who were trying to figure out what to do to try to make things right.

I have to admit to wishing flat tires from debris on all of them.

I agree, things can be and often are different when they are personal. Point of view is an odd thing. When a POV changes and becomes personal it attaches itself to all our own emotional baggage and there is the difference. It's also where empathy lies. IMO

Thx for posting your reconsideration. It can be hard to admit changes in ideas. Smile

Had someone filmed the storm that would be different. They weren't filming the event just the aftermath.

See here they are the bruises some were self-inflicted and some showed up along the way. - JF

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01-05-2016, 01:35 PM
RE: Moral or Ethical Dilemma's, Q & A's
(01-05-2016 01:20 PM)Gilgamesh Wrote:  
(01-05-2016 01:05 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  You're talking to an avid hunter here, you don't need to explain hunter instinct to me. I can also tell you this, the reason I hunt and fish is because it's fun. Same reason I eat meat. I'm sure I'd be healthier as a vegan, but life is less fun without bacon.

Can hunting be logically reduced to killing? Well, no, it can't. You can kill something without having hunted it. So you can have fun hunting, without necessarily having fun just killing. I fish, too, because it's fun. But going to the store, buying a live fish, then killing it, wouldn't cause the same feeling of 'fun' in to occur in me. You explicitly said you'd kill them for fun. Maybe you meant, "hunt, then kill." I was just identfying the difference between hunting and killing since it seemed like you were conflating them, but I think we agree here, man.

I think we're in agreement too.

I just want to stress that killing is a necessary part of hunting though. You're not hunting if there is no intent to kill.

And, while I wouldn't find enjoyment from killing a pig inside a farmers fence, I would for sure find enjoyment eating the pork chops and sausages, and those foods are really just for fun (I'd probably be healthier without them). So again, it's killing for fun (the fun of eating yummy pork).

You also hear a lot of hunters defend hunting by saying things like "it's not about the kill, it's about the hunt." If that were true, they'd leave the guns at home wouldn't they?

Anyways, no reason for us to argue over the semantics. Thumbsup
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01-05-2016, 04:29 PM
RE: Moral or Ethical Dilemma's, Q & A's
Heatheness,

My apologies. I assure you it wasn't my intention to pick a fight with you. I know that I can come across as pretty rough around the edges (as my wife puts it lol)

sincere apologies
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01-05-2016, 05:13 PM
RE: Moral or Ethical Dilemma's, Q & A's
(01-05-2016 01:35 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  You also hear a lot of hunters defend hunting by saying things like "it's not about the kill, it's about the hunt." If that were true, they'd leave the guns at home wouldn't they?
Sounds correct logic to me. You could always "hunt" with a camera instead of a gun, if it was the idea of tracking an animal and getting close to it. the photo would be the proof.

If it is marksmanship, then you could always go to a shooting range and shoot at targets.

If it is the idea of shooting at animal shaped (or people shaped objects, if you get a buzz from that), then there are targets made in those shapes. You could even stick one of your nature photos to the target and shoot at that.

But I think, if we are being honest. Many hunters do like the kill. Makes them feel big and powerful (IMO).
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01-05-2016, 05:26 PM
RE: Moral or Ethical Dilemma's, Q & A's
(01-05-2016 05:13 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(01-05-2016 01:35 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  You also hear a lot of hunters defend hunting by saying things like "it's not about the kill, it's about the hunt." If that were true, they'd leave the guns at home wouldn't they?
Sounds correct logic to me. You could always "hunt" with a camera instead of a gun, if it was the idea of tracking an animal and getting close to it. the photo would be the proof.

If it is marksmanship, then you could always go to a shooting range and shoot at targets.

If it is the idea of shooting at animal shaped (or people shaped objects, if you get a buzz from that), then there are targets made in those shapes. You could even stick one of your nature photos to the target and shoot at that.

But I think, if we are being honest. Many hunters do like the kill. Makes them feel big and powerful (IMO).

Many hunters also like and sometimes need the meat. Here the meat processing plant shut down regular production and do only deer for about 4 weeks to accommodate those who hunt for meat, that's how many there are.

I don't hunt but I do eat the meat that my SIL provides for his family, usually a couple of hundred pounds a year or so. They have three sons and their additional family members (like me) that some of that meat goes to. I would not be able to afford venison even if it was in the stores here. So yes, depending on your area, many people supplement their food consumption with hunted meat and fishing meat.

It also provides a service of keeping the herds in check and culling less than prime animals out of the breeding line. The hunting fees allow for the conservation programs and rangers.

Some go for just the thrill of the kill but not all. Not most in my area.

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01-05-2016, 08:46 PM
RE: Moral or Ethical Dilemma's, Q & A's
(01-05-2016 05:26 PM)Heatheness Wrote:  Many hunters also like and sometimes need the meat. Here the meat processing plant shut down regular production and do only deer for about 4 weeks to accommodate those who hunt for meat, that's how many there are.

I don't hunt but I do eat the meat that my SIL provides for his family, usually a couple of hundred pounds a year or so. They have three sons and their additional family members (like me) that some of that meat goes to. I would not be able to afford venison even if it was in the stores here. So yes, depending on your area, many people supplement their food consumption with hunted meat and fishing meat.

It also provides a service of keeping the herds in check and culling less than prime animals out of the breeding line. The hunting fees allow for the conservation programs and rangers.

Some go for just the thrill of the kill but not all. Not most in my area.
I'm not against hunting BTW.

I like going fishing, although buying from the supermarket is much cheaper and more convenient.

I could catch the fish and let them go, but I don't see much point in that. I don't have morals so I'm not against killing animals.

I sometimes go hunting for rabbits (with a slug gun), but not very often, and I'm sure I'm not making a dent in the rabbit population. It's just a bit of fun (for me), terror, pain, death for the rabbit.

But it is what it is. I don't take a moral high ground and claim it to be something more righteous that what it is.

And don't take this to mean that I think hunters that claim they are doing it for cheap food are lying. I'm not saying that at all. Just saying that I suspect some people (not all) are using that as an excuse, but actually just enjoying killing animals.
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01-05-2016, 08:51 PM
RE: Moral or Ethical Dilemma's, Q & A's
(01-05-2016 08:46 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(01-05-2016 05:26 PM)Heatheness Wrote:  Many hunters also like and sometimes need the meat. Here the meat processing plant shut down regular production and do only deer for about 4 weeks to accommodate those who hunt for meat, that's how many there are.

I don't hunt but I do eat the meat that my SIL provides for his family, usually a couple of hundred pounds a year or so. They have three sons and their additional family members (like me) that some of that meat goes to. I would not be able to afford venison even if it was in the stores here. So yes, depending on your area, many people supplement their food consumption with hunted meat and fishing meat.

It also provides a service of keeping the herds in check and culling less than prime animals out of the breeding line. The hunting fees allow for the conservation programs and rangers.

Some go for just the thrill of the kill but not all. Not most in my area.
I'm not against hunting BTW.

I like going fishing, although buying from the supermarket is much cheaper and more convenient.

I could catch the fish and let them go, but I don't see much point in that. I don't have morals so I'm not against killing animals.

I sometimes go hunting for rabbits (with a slug gun), but not very often, and I'm sure I'm not making a dent in the rabbit population. It's just a bit of fun (for me), terror, pain, death for the rabbit.

But it is what it is. I don't take a moral high ground and claim it to be something more righteous that what it is.

And don't take this to mean that I think hunters that claim they are doing it for cheap food are lying. I'm not saying that at all. Just saying that I suspect some people (not all) are using that as an excuse, but actually just enjoying killing animals.

Agreed.

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01-05-2016, 08:53 PM
RE: Moral or Ethical Dilemma's, Q & A's
(01-05-2016 04:29 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  Heatheness,

My apologies. I assure you it wasn't my intention to pick a fight with you. I know that I can come across as pretty rough around the edges (as my wife puts it lol)

sincere apologies

Okay, thanks. Sorry if I misunderstood.

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02-05-2016, 06:03 AM
RE: Moral or Ethical Dilemma's, Q & A's
(01-05-2016 05:13 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(01-05-2016 01:35 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  You also hear a lot of hunters defend hunting by saying things like "it's not about the kill, it's about the hunt." If that were true, they'd leave the guns at home wouldn't they?
Sounds correct logic to me. You could always "hunt" with a camera instead of a gun, if it was the idea of tracking an animal and getting close to it. the photo would be the proof.

If it is marksmanship, then you could always go to a shooting range and shoot at targets.

If it is the idea of shooting at animal shaped (or people shaped objects, if you get a buzz from that), then there are targets made in those shapes. You could even stick one of your nature photos to the target and shoot at that.

But I think, if we are being honest. Many hunters do like the kill. Makes them feel big and powerful (IMO).

Or maybe they like venison. Drinking Beverage

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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02-05-2016, 06:07 AM
RE: Moral or Ethical Dilemma's, Q & A's
(01-05-2016 08:46 PM)Stevil Wrote:  I sometimes go hunting for rabbits (with a slug gun), but not very often, and I'm sure I'm not making a dent in the rabbit population. It's just a bit of fun (for me), terror, pain, death for the rabbit.

A slug gun? Shocking

Not really the appropriate tool. Consider

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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