Morality
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13-09-2011, 08:15 PM
Morality
A person living in solitude cannot be moral. Morality requires the presence of at least one other person. Morality is a cultural matter. Religion is a cultural matter. Morality is nested within religion, but does not have to be; however, both religion and morality are nested within culture. There is nothing genetic at work. Morality is an agreement between two or more people and is not exclusive to religion. Morality is ubiquitous in all cultures. Discuss.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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14-09-2011, 12:56 AM (This post was last modified: 14-09-2011 01:40 AM by Blythe.)
RE: Morality
(13-09-2011 08:15 PM)Ghost Wrote:  A person living in solitude cannot be moral. Morality requires the presence of at least one other person. Morality is a cultural matter. Religion is a cultural matter. Morality is nested within religion, but does not have to be; however, both religion and morality are nested within culture. There is nothing genetic at work. Morality is an agreement between two or more people and is not exclusive to religion. Morality is ubiquitous in all cultures. Discuss.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt

Morality is also a social construct. its learned behaviour. I quite agree with
the idea of evolutionary morality, where it evolve along side society. And got twisted up with religion along the way. Trying to tell christians that you can have morality with their religion meets with strong resistance.
I meant to say ' without their religion" not with. sorry.

I want for myself what I want for every women, absolute equality. Agnes Macphail
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14-09-2011, 01:45 AM
RE: Morality
(13-09-2011 08:15 PM)Ghost Wrote:  A person living in solitude cannot be moral. Morality requires the presence of at least one other person.

I think morality can also apply to how we treat any other life form; our moral attitude to it, whether another animal or plant life, fish etc. , so for me, being in solitude away from other humans would still require a moral code.

e.g. Do we kill other life forms for fun or only for food and clothing? Some people could not allow their moral stance to allow for that, while others could.

Vegans, for instance, cannot kill any other life form, but can harvest fruits, etc.

Personally, I could not kill another animal, even if starving. I'd eat fruit and vegetables.

Just my thoughts on the matter.

"To think of what the world has suffered from superstition, from religion, from the worship of beast and stone and god, is
almost enough to make one insane."

Robert G. Ingersoll
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14-09-2011, 05:22 AM
RE: Morality
(13-09-2011 08:15 PM)Ghost Wrote:  A person living in solitude cannot be moral. Morality requires the presence of at least one other person. Morality is a cultural matter. Religion is a cultural matter. Morality is nested within religion, but does not have to be; however, both religion and morality are nested within culture. There is nothing genetic at work. Morality is an agreement between two or more people and is not exclusive to religion. Morality is ubiquitous in all cultures. Discuss.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt

You won't get any argument out of me on that statement, we appear to be in full agreement. Morality as I see it is nothing more than a code societies create for interactions between individuals and groups. I think anyone who claims that there is a single objective morality is either uneducated, blind or stupid.

Quick example: My grandparents were very religious and upstanding people active in a well known Pentecostal denomination, in fact he was a Bishop over several churches (they called the office an Elder). Yet, if you look at the records when they were married my grandmother was 13! I asked around and they said it was not unusual at all in the late 1800's and early 1900's. If that is true then I'd say our society has shifted quite a bit concerning the age that one can get married.

The same goes for churches. In the Pentecostal churches I grew up in, women had to wear long dresses, forbidden to cut their hair and so on. And anyone who did not follow those rules were considered hell-bound for sure. Yet today, these same churches don't pay any attention to these archaic dress codes. The Bible didn't change, but the morality of these churches shifted.

A much more honest way to approach morality is to agree as a society on our values first and then create morality that fits those values. I don't understand why so many theists I have discussions with think that morality has to either be an eternal code set in stone or we have total anarchy where anything goes.

As for what those values are, that's where the debating fun begins. Big Grin

“There is no sin except stupidity.” Oscar Wilde
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14-09-2011, 07:00 AM
RE: Morality
(13-09-2011 08:15 PM)Ghost Wrote:  A person living in solitude cannot be moral. Morality requires the presence of at least one other person. Morality is a cultural matter. Religion is a cultural matter. Morality is nested within religion, but does not have to be; however, both religion and morality are nested within culture. There is nothing genetic at work. Morality is an agreement between two or more people and is not exclusive to religion. Morality is ubiquitous in all cultures. Discuss.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt

I would agree with everything aside from "There is nothing genetic at work." I'm sure you know the "Nature v. Nurture" is a debate that's been going on for decades (if not longer) in the Psychological community, but I'm fairly certain that almost all agree that at least some aspects of personality (and by extension, morality) is inherited. To be in a situation where there is no morality would almost extend to being in a situation where there is no personality. Most of us in that kind of solitude would probably invent an imaginary friend to keep us sane (or as a product of already becoming insane Tongue) so it makes it very difficult for me to imagine a person being "alone" enough for there to be no morality (since morality as a concept would extend even into our imaginations--it's just those kinds of moral choices have far less real consequences than "real life" engagements).

I think that aside from in the cases of very severe mental illnesses, there's no way to "escape" morality (aside from dying or "ascending" to a state of losing self-awareness if that kind of thing is possible).

Maybe I have a huge blind spot somewhere, but I can't seem to find a self-aware (and non-antisocial) state you could be in where morality wouldn't apply to you due to solitude.

"It does feel like something to be wrong; it feels like being right." -Kathryn Schulz
I am 100% certain that I am wrong about something I am certain about right now. Because even if everything I stand for turns out to be completely true, I was still wrong about being wrong.
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14-09-2011, 07:55 AM
RE: Morality
What is morality??? Other than a battle with your own "conscious".......I classify morality as a perception......a perception that isnt "universal" its reasoning only exists on this planet.

Is it moral that an asteroid could hit earth and wipe it out???

Is it moral that our galaxy is slowly merging with another galaxy???

Morality = Your programming on right and wrong......a perception on how you see the world.

For no matter how much I use these symbols, to describe symptoms of my existence.
You are your own emphasis.
So I say nothing.

-Bemore.
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14-09-2011, 08:30 AM
RE: Morality
(13-09-2011 08:15 PM)Ghost Wrote:  A person living in solitude cannot be moral.

I disagree. He/She can still judge his/her own actions and the actions he/she performed in the past. We all change... are "morals" also change. I used to be a hunter, now I don't like killing insects (they have just as much a right to be here as I do). I can judged my past behavior as amoral compared to my current set of morals. Thus I can conclude to "myself" to be more "moral" than I was before. Since there is nobody around to argue with me my moral stance is the highest moral stance one can obtain.... until I change it.

Your statement can only hold true if the person never changes.

“We're born alone, we live alone, we die alone. Only through our love and friendship can we create the illusion for the moment that we're not alone.” Orson Welles
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14-09-2011, 08:35 AM
RE: Morality
(14-09-2011 08:30 AM)myst32 Wrote:  
(13-09-2011 08:15 PM)Ghost Wrote:  A person living in solitude cannot be moral.

I disagree. He/She can still judge his/her own actions and the actions he/she performed in the past.

Do you not need something to compare it too first???

For no matter how much I use these symbols, to describe symptoms of my existence.
You are your own emphasis.
So I say nothing.

-Bemore.
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14-09-2011, 08:54 AM
RE: Morality
(14-09-2011 08:35 AM)bemore Wrote:  
(14-09-2011 08:30 AM)myst32 Wrote:  
(13-09-2011 08:15 PM)Ghost Wrote:  A person living in solitude cannot be moral.

I disagree. He/She can still judge his/her own actions and the actions he/she performed in the past.

Do you not need something to compare it too first???

Morals are made up... in your head. Feel free to compare them to whatever else you make up in your head. If you are "living in solitude" you can make up whatever set of morals you wish. Later down the line you can change them and then compare them to the first set. You can then conclude that you are "more" moral than you were before.

“We're born alone, we live alone, we die alone. Only through our love and friendship can we create the illusion for the moment that we're not alone.” Orson Welles
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14-09-2011, 08:59 AM
RE: Morality
(14-09-2011 08:54 AM)myst32 Wrote:  
(14-09-2011 08:35 AM)bemore Wrote:  
(14-09-2011 08:30 AM)myst32 Wrote:  
(13-09-2011 08:15 PM)Ghost Wrote:  A person living in solitude cannot be moral.

I disagree. He/She can still judge his/her own actions and the actions he/she performed in the past.

Do you not need something to compare it too first???

Morals are made up... in your head. Feel free to compare them to whatever else you make up in your head. If you are "living in solitude" you can make up whatever set of morals you wish. Later down the line you can change them and then compare them to the first set. You can then conclude that you are "more" moral than you were before.

You were taught your morals though..........you were not born with them.

If you live alone.........having no experience of "good" and "bad" then how can you possibly think in Moral terms???

You wouldnt be "intellectual".........I think you would be more "instinctal"

For no matter how much I use these symbols, to describe symptoms of my existence.
You are your own emphasis.
So I say nothing.

-Bemore.
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