Morality

[morondog]

(29-12-2012 01:42 PM)FSM_scot Wrote:  since this is a double post. this is now the official derailment thread. derail as everyone sees fit.

Waaa NO DERAIL. NO DERAIL.

[FSM_scot]

(29-12-2012 01:46 PM)morondog Wrote:  Can this be merged with the other thread of same title plz oh glorious mods which art in interwebs?

Hmm I'll look into it.

[namiloveyou]

(29-12-2012 12:57 PM)morondog Wrote:  We don't have to define some kind of absolute morality. Forget evolution for the moment. Let's just say I have no God to hand me morals on stone tablets.

I just look at morals as... what I'm comfortable with doing. Like, I don't wanna kill people, so I don't. I don't need an invisible God as a reason not to kill people, I just don't do it.

If you want to widen the discussion from personal morals to societal rules, then we can say that we make laws for the benefit of society.

But personal morals still trump law, for me, assuming I can get away with it For example, in apartheid South Africa, racism was written into the legal system. I didn't live in such times, but I'd like to think that if I had, I would have stood against such a ridiculous idea.

In all this, still no need for an invisible God.

I'd like to throw the question back at you. How does having this God guy give you a basis for morals ?

As anything goes morally, who says Apartheid was wrong? I wouldn't have stood against it.

Anything goes in life, as personal morality is as broad as infinity.,

[Farlian]

Morality is doing what you believe to be the right course of action.

[namiloveyou]

(01-01-2013 07:03 PM)Farlian Wrote:  Morality is doing what you believe to be the right course of action.

exactly, anything goes in life.

[DLJ]

As Free noted, "reciprocity" is one of the pillars (for want of a better word) of morality. Here's the current list (from Jonathan Haidt)

http://www.moralfoundations.org/

The 6 "moralities" are:
1. Harm / care (empathy)
2. Fairness / cheating (reciprocity)
3. Liberty / oppression (freedom)
4. Loyalty / betrayal (in-group)
5. Authority / subversion (respect)
6. Sanctity / degradation (purity)

Tests show that the liberal-minded are more in tune with 1. 2. and 3. whereas conservatives value all six.


One of the posters above is claiming to value none of the above.



Societies usually has a way of isolating people like that for the well-being of the majority.

Similarly, a laissez-faire attitude usually has its own rewards... the burnt hand is the best teacher.

[morondog]

(01-01-2013 06:17 PM)namiloveyou Wrote:  As anything goes morally, who says Apartheid was wrong? I wouldn't have stood against it.

That is of course, your choice. I say apartheid was wrong from my personal standpoint. You can say it's fine and dandy. Let's say that you were on the receiving end... I think you'd stand against it then.

[Austavion]

Namiloveyou, I think you might change your philosophy if, like morondog said, you were on the other side of apartheid. Or, getting robbed,assaulted, or tortured. I think that infinite morality would tighten a bit if you were watching a child get tortured and had the power to stop it.

I do, however, think that approach to morality in a naturalistic framework is fairly compatible though, which is the problem.

[FlyingPizzaMonster]

Morality being subjective does not mean "anything goes", anymore than atheism would imply nihilism.

We are social, rather than solitary animals. We have a natural instinct for altruism, empathy and cooperation. Combined with self-awareness and we have the opposite emotions of pride and shame (guilt being a form of shame). Morality comes from this.

Our evolved instinct, based on help vs harm to others in the group, is the true source of all of our morality. The fact that it is subjective, and there are some gray areas open to interpretation does NOT amount to "anything goes".

Religion is not the source of morality. It steals credit for morality but it also perverts it. A true moral code based on altruism is replaced with one based solely on obedience.

[namiloveyou]

(01-01-2013 08:44 PM)DLJ Wrote:  As Free noted, "reciprocity" is one of the pillars (for want of a better word) of morality. Here's the current list (from Jonathan Haidt)

http://www.moralfoundations.org/

The 6 "moralities" are:
1. Harm / care (empathy)
2. Fairness / cheating (reciprocity)
3. Liberty / oppression (freedom)
4. Loyalty / betrayal (in-group)
5. Authority / subversion (respect)
6. Sanctity / degradation (purity)

Tests show that the liberal-minded are more in tune with 1. 2. and 3. whereas conservatives value all six.


One of the posters above is claiming to value none of the above.



Societies usually has a way of isolating people like that for the well-being of the majority.

Similarly, a laissez-faire attitude usually has its own rewards... the burnt hand is the best teacher.

yeah... and most people in modern society DON'T have a laissez-faire moral system.