Morality
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03-08-2013, 05:26 AM
Morality
What do you think of these statements?

Any Government other than a Moral Government is doomed to ultimate failure.
Morality is the method by which one determines how to act to optimize the freedom, security, and happiness of all.

The Law of Self Preservation over rules and dictates all other "rules" of morality.
The Law of Self Preservation; When following something, if following that thing leads to the destruction of that thing, one should not follow that thing. (can't think of a better word than "something" for that)

Method? of Morality -
1) Is the action harmful, mentally or physically, to another?
If no or indeterminable... It's moral
If yes... proceed to next step
2) Will the harm likely benefit them in the long term?
If yes... it's moral
if no or unknown... proceed to next step
3) Do you have consent from that person to harm them?
if yes... proceed to next step
if no... It's immoral
4) Are they reasonably informed of the consequences of the action?
if yes... it's moral
if no... it's immoral

I don't think this is complete, but a good starting place...
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03-08-2013, 08:01 AM
RE: Morality
(03-08-2013 05:26 AM)Durakken Wrote:  Any Government other than a Moral Government is doomed to ultimate failure.

Governments and their policies should be amoral, but should strive to be ethical.

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03-08-2013, 08:21 AM
RE: Morality
(03-08-2013 08:01 AM)Logica Humano Wrote:  
(03-08-2013 05:26 AM)Durakken Wrote:  Any Government other than a Moral Government is doomed to ultimate failure.

Governments and their policies should be amoral, but should strive to be ethical.

Read the next line please.
Morality is the same thing as Government.
Government's ultimate goal is to manage the resources of a civilization to provide the most happiness, freedom, and security to those it governs, so it follows the same principals of morality, and thus are one and the same.
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03-08-2013, 08:27 AM
RE: Morality
(03-08-2013 08:21 AM)Durakken Wrote:  
(03-08-2013 08:01 AM)Logica Humano Wrote:  Governments and their policies should be amoral, but should strive to be ethical.

Read the next line please.
Morality is the same thing as Government.
Government's ultimate goal is to manage the resources of a civilization to provide the most happiness, freedom, and security to those it governs, so it follows the same principals of morality, and thus are one and the same.

Your argument is circular, essentially tautological. You are assuming a moral government to prove government is moral.

Do you think your statements are consistent with the government of North Korea?

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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03-08-2013, 09:14 AM
RE: Morality
(03-08-2013 08:21 AM)Durakken Wrote:  Read the next line please.
Morality is the same thing as Government.
Government's ultimate goal is to manage the resources of a civilization to provide the most happiness, freedom, and security to those it governs, so it follows the same principals of morality, and thus are one and the same.

Morality is necessarily personal and is only integrated into government through the form of socially accepted ethics. That is to say, western governments are only "moral" when the majority maintain that it is.

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03-08-2013, 09:17 AM
RE: Morality
(03-08-2013 08:27 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(03-08-2013 08:21 AM)Durakken Wrote:  Read the next line please.
Morality is the same thing as Government.
Government's ultimate goal is to manage the resources of a civilization to provide the most happiness, freedom, and security to those it governs, so it follows the same principals of morality, and thus are one and the same.

Your argument is circular, essentially tautological. You are assuming a moral government to prove government is moral.

Do you think your statements are consistent with the government of North Korea?

Government, regardless of form takes power from the people and exists solely because the people feel that it is in their best interest. Governments that are mismanaging resources will ultimately fall, just like any system. Different systems and different amounts and types of mismanagements take different amounts of times to self destruct, but even the biggest, strongest, system will destroy itself if it is mismanaged.

If you think that is nonsense, realize that there are really only a couple theories about how groups form. Domination, Defense, Trade. All of them are about managing resources, communications, and actions between people. How you manage these things are freedom, security, and happiness. Even between the most tyrannical dictator and the lowliest of servants. The dictator provides security and the servant provides happiness. Of course one might say that the dictator is the threat to begin with, but that is ignoring the rest of the world.

What happens when the happiness the servant provides to the dictator isn't enough? The dictator removes their security. And if the dictator did this enough? Security that the peasants and Lords would falter and a coup would happen.

Also the argument is not circular. I am defining things. You likely don't define morality like I do and use some nebulous meaning and that conversation pretty much goes like this...
"What is moral?"
"Doing what is right?"
"And what is right?"
And at this point you make up an arbitrary answer that is subjective and doesn't actually work with what we mean when anyone I have ever heard speak on the issue says moral.

Morality always concerns 2 entities and always concerns itself with how we optimize our relations with others or all while also always saying Self preservation is moral.

So the venn diagram of morality is action that is taken towards another individual.
A moral action is that which promotes the optimal relationship between parties
An immoral action is that which promotes the destruction of relationships

What is the optimal relationship. One in which we are free to do what we want, are happy, and are without fear of undue attack.

Government is simply an extension and codification of the relationship of an individual to a group and their collective resources.

Internal Politics is eithics between the individuals and the government and foreign politics are ethics between groups.
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03-08-2013, 09:32 AM
RE: Morality
(03-08-2013 09:17 AM)Durakken Wrote:  Morality always concerns 2 entities and always concerns itself with how we optimize our relations with others or all while also always saying Self preservation is moral.

Correct on the first half, but it is tao to say the first duality is manufactured. Thumbsup

I love my Gwynnies. The "first" option is omnidirectional, unconditional love. Leaving the second option to be, of course, hate. The vector.

Hate is not wrong, per se, merely the primal vector. Problem I have, is how many Nicaraguans I can allow to sleep in my bedroom. Which is to say, to love all depreciates love. I wanna speak to love as a point of minimal entropy, but love is too pure, to speak of without a translator.

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03-08-2013, 09:50 AM
RE: Morality
(03-08-2013 09:32 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  
(03-08-2013 09:17 AM)Durakken Wrote:  Morality always concerns 2 entities and always concerns itself with how we optimize our relations with others or all while also always saying Self preservation is moral.

Correct on the first half, but it is tao to say the first duality is manufactured. Thumbsup

I love my Gwynnies. The "first" option is omnidirectional, unconditional love. Leaving the second option to be, of course, hate. The vector.

Hate is not wrong, per se, merely the primal vector. Problem I have, is how many Nicaraguans I can allow to sleep in my bedroom. Which is to say, to love all depreciates love. I wanna speak to love as a point of minimal entropy, but love is too pure, to speak of without a translator.

Irrelevant. Love and Hate are emotions that are contained within your own self.

If someone says you shouldn't hate someone, the answer to that is that the person you hate shouldn't act like a dick.
In other words, it is not immoral to hate. But the action that made you hate might be. Optimization then might be to avoid interaction or it might be to slap them upside the head to make them not be a dick.

That is why in those steps "Will the harm likely benefit them in the long term?" is there. and this is why there is a difference between violence and harm. Violence is malicious harm while harm is something that causes damage, hurts, or results in a lose...and harm that benefits can be argued can't be called harm because it is adding, healing, etc in some way.

A doctor for example cuts someone open. This is harm, but then they perform heart surgery... This is beneficial... was this immoral? no it was beneficial even if there was harm involved.

This is also why the idea of prisons is wrong. Punishment is violence. Correction is benevolence
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03-08-2013, 09:52 AM
RE: Morality
(03-08-2013 08:21 AM)Durakken Wrote:  
(03-08-2013 08:01 AM)Logica Humano Wrote:  Governments and their policies should be amoral, but should strive to be ethical.

Read the next line please.
Morality is the same thing as Government.
Government's ultimate goal is to manage the resources of a civilization to provide the most happiness, freedom, and security to those it governs, so it follows the same principals of morality, and thus are one and the same.

Hmmm....

Governance, in the wider sense is not just about resource management. It is about creating the right environment to sustain a balance between three (often conflicting) objectives:

Benefits Realisation
Risk Optimisation
Resource Optimisation.

You are making an assumption that "happiness, freedom, and security" are the agreed benefits.

I'm not saying that those are not great objectives, just that you are making an assumption.

Interesting thoughts though.

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03-08-2013, 09:54 AM
RE: Morality
(03-08-2013 09:50 AM)Durakken Wrote:  Irrelevant. Love and Hate are emotions that are contained within your own self.

Incorrect. Just as there is more matter than antimatter in the universe than antimatter, there is more love. You know how I know? Love makes shit matter. Thumbsup

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