Morality
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03-08-2013, 11:20 AM
RE: Morality
(03-08-2013 10:45 AM)LostLocke Wrote:  
(03-08-2013 10:35 AM)Durakken Wrote:  And how do they maintain power? Optimization of relationships.
Sometimes.
Sometimes it's through fear and intimidation.
IE "Do as we say or else."
That's not what I would consider an "optimized" relationship.

You seem to think that "optimized" means best bros or something like that. Optimized means, what works best.

Sorry to harsh the good vibes and all, but sometimes what's best is a tyrant who will eliminate those that are not doing as they say.

Let's say we're in a tribe and I'm the chief and we're nomadic... Let's say we got to get from Point A to Point B and we have a whole bunch of rules to keep us out of danger. You keep on breaking the rules and keep putting us all in danger. Let's also say we're the last humans on Earth.

You persistently breaking rules. The optimal relationship between you and the tribe is for me to kick you... What if I can't do that? What if now there are other tribes and they own all the land around us and they don't want you either and if they spot you there they will attack us and for some reason we have no prisons.

So the options are kill you or let you keep being dumb and keep almost getting us killed. At that point the moral thing to do is kill you.

You're argument is "well that's not optimal" yes it is. You are endangering the group and regardless of how many there are in the group there is still only 1 of you and it becomes a simple math game. If you live we'll likely all be dead soon. If you die, we'll probably not have this problem any more and be safe from those things that we have rules to protect us from.

Law of Preservation kicks in, you be dead.

Basically the optimization is not for the individual, but for the group. in the case of the government.
There's an argument for why group optimization is individual optimization which I don't feel like typing out.
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03-08-2013, 11:53 AM
RE: Morality
That's not what I was referring to. But I think you probably already know that.

What about the tyrant that makes and enforces rules for no other reason than that's what he wants?

Or the guy who raises taxes by 20%, but none of it goes into the economy or infrastructure, it all goes to stocking his palace with rare artifacts?

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03-08-2013, 12:06 PM
RE: Morality
(03-08-2013 11:53 AM)LostLocke Wrote:  That's not what I was referring to. But I think you probably already know that.

What about the tyrant that makes and enforces rules for no other reason than that's what he wants?

I already answered that. Those who do not optimize will be outperformed or there will be a coup or it will just fall apart eventually. History has shown this repeatedly.

You are essentially asking me what happens what happens when you have one guy who is really strong and can beat up 2 wimpy people and has them do things for him. What happens? Eventually that relationship falls apart. Eventually they gets someone to stop it from happening. Eventually they fight back.

Even when the 2 nerds never fight back or get away, eventually the big brute loses the nerds and now doesn't know how to do anything for himself and he quickly falls in status among other people.
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07-08-2013, 04:09 AM
RE: Morality
Morality is relative to every individual. What does that imply now?

No, you don't have to agree with me on everything. You can argue all you want, since I welcome all viewpoints. Come! Come! Let's have a well-reasoned banter.
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07-08-2013, 06:33 AM
RE: Morality
(07-08-2013 04:09 AM)ilgrigiogrey Wrote:  Morality is relative to every individual. What does that imply now?

It implies that morality is a social construct. Morality only ever exists in the ways people interact.

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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08-08-2013, 07:47 AM
RE: Morality
(07-08-2013 06:33 AM)Chas Wrote:  It implies that morality is a social construct. Morality only ever exists in the ways people interact.

I definitely agree that the majority of morality is definitely socially constructed, though I would say that the foundation of it is an evolutionary survival mechanism.

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08-08-2013, 10:06 AM
RE: Morality
I've never understood why people seem to think that the construct of a government has anything to do with morality or why they always assume it is necessary to exist. The construct of a government is just something that's happened to emerge from human evolution and history, because of typical mammalian hierarchical reasons.

As for what I think of the OP's statements? Nothing new.

"Any government other than a moral government is doomed to ultimate faliure" - that depends on your definition of success, so this statement can't be absolutely true; also, what is the definition of a "moral government" in this statement. This pre-assumes a concept that the OP has already decided on.

"Morality is the method by which one determines how to act to optimize the freedom, security, and happiness of all." - what does the word "morality" even mean? Anything the person making the argument wants it to mean. This statement could be made by anyone and they would equally believe that their own definition of morality would somehow optimize the freedom, security and happiness of all - even if that meant mass genocide to achieve it.

As for "The Law of Self-Preservation" - what even is that? Is that a law...? Consider

The OP's statements are nothing other than just: I have a vague idea of this thing called MORALITY and that means GOODNESS, and any GOVERNMENT that is not a GOODNESS GOVERNMENT is not GOOD. Therefore GOODNESS is best.

I don't actually think a 'government' is necessary, has some duty or function, or anything fanciful like that. I don't think there is such an absolute thing as 'morality' either; how anyone can look at the world and come to that conclusion is beyond me. I think that the reality is just this: there are people who happen to be in charge of other people, and people can do actions that can hurt other people or not. There is nothing else to it. All these supposedly absolute, platonic and inbuilt concepts like 'government' and 'morality' are just empty words that could be applied to anything.

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08-08-2013, 03:40 PM
RE: Morality
Morality doesn't come from the religion . Just saying Big Grin

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