Morality
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28-07-2015, 03:44 PM
RE: Morality
(28-07-2015 06:13 AM)Matt Finney Wrote:  Hey epronovost,

Nihilism is the recognition that morality actually equates to nothing more than preferences. For example, lets look at abortion. If ever there was a moral dilemma, abortion is definitely one. Nihilism is the recognition that there is no right or wrong answer. Abortion is not wrong, and it wouldn't be wrong if abortion was made illegal. Some people reject all abortions, some reject abortion after the 1st trimester, some reject only after the second trimester, and some are willing to accept all abortions including partial birth. Personally, I don't see much difference between partial birth abortion and infanticide. Who is to say that if we are going to allow partial birth abortion, that we shouldn't also allow infanticide? We could place a time limit on infanticide such that it has to be done within an hour of birth, or 24 hours of birth, 5 days of birth. http://www.mrctv.org/videos/warning-grap...ion-filmed

The point is, people are just going to vote based on what they like, which is perfectly compatible with nihilism. With nihilism, you just do what you want, but there are no preconceived notions of being right or wrong, it's understanding that there is no right and wrong. We can still have preferences though.

Hey Matt (I hope i can call you Matt),

Sorry for the late response and the four pages that separate my answer to your comment but a small flame war broke out apparently. I thought I might clarify a bit my thoughts and ask for a bit more detail about moral nihilism. I did a bit of research on the subject of moral nihilism and was wondering which school of moral nihilism would represent best your opinion on the subject. From what you have mentioned until now you seem to be from the expressivism school of thought. I also wonder if you have some books or essay to suggest for further readings. I don't think we will agree on this thread on morality and its nature and one of the reason might be because you and I aren't so gifted and patient to write complete essay to defend our stances. Maybe an author who published on the subject of moral nihilism could indeed present a better case that I could judge for myself.

From my part, like I have alluded before, I would identify myself as a Universal prescriptivist. I could suggest you Sorting Out Ethics. It’s a rather good read and not so long, a bit over 150 pages. It present a system that share similarity with moral nihilism in that it shares a certain form of non-cognitivism, but its universizable nature, based on logic and methodical analysis akin to what I described in my precedent post, gives it a strong utilitarian and an nice illusion of objectivism. This allows it, I think, to hold a lot of explanation power when it comes to describe how human society apply and treat actions in a moral and ethical perspective and how it structure itself. It can also answer in a satisfactory fashion to why and how moal dillema like abortion could be sorted out.
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29-07-2015, 07:25 PM
RE: Morality
Ok, if morality is not objective, then put your money where your mouth is.....

In my opinion, I think what those Sept 11 hijackers did was right, killing those 5000 people in the World Trade Centre and inflicting the misery on all there family and friends and putting fear into every passengers and America in general. Good on them, I really support what they did.

I also support what ISIS do, cutting off the heads of innocent people, I think what they are doing is right.

You don't agree with me? So what. You are not saying I am factually wrong to think those things above are right or good are you? Sure you can disagree with me, but most people disagree with my choice of woman that I like, same thing, so what. I am not factually wrong am I?

Oh, I also think thick crust pizza tastes better than thin crust pizza.
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29-07-2015, 08:28 PM
RE: Morality
(29-07-2015 07:25 PM)Hambone Wrote:  Ok, if morality is not objective, then put your money where your mouth is.....

In my opinion, I think what those Sept 11 hijackers did was right, killing those 5000 people in the World Trade Centre and inflicting the misery on all there family and friends and putting fear into every passengers and America in general. Good on them, I really support what they did.

I also support what ISIS do, cutting off the heads of innocent people, I think what they are doing is right.

You don't agree with me? So what. You are not saying I am factually wrong to think those things above are right or good are you? Sure you can disagree with me, but most people disagree with my choice of woman that I like, same thing, so what. I am not factually wrong am I?

Oh, I also think thick crust pizza tastes better than thin crust pizza.

hmmmm... to whom are you sending this challenge? Are we supposed to debate on your biased statement or can we debate the real ones underneath? You are aware that ethics and morality have more declination than subjectivism and objectivism.

PS: Nitpicking, but important, 3000 persons died during the attack on the World Trade Center not 5000.
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29-07-2015, 08:37 PM
RE: Morality
(29-07-2015 08:28 PM)epronovost Wrote:  
(29-07-2015 07:25 PM)Hambone Wrote:  Ok, if morality is not objective, then put your money where your mouth is.....

In my opinion, I think what those Sept 11 hijackers did was right, killing those 5000 people in the World Trade Centre and inflicting the misery on all there family and friends and putting fear into every passengers and America in general. Good on them, I really support what they did.

I also support what ISIS do, cutting off the heads of innocent people, I think what they are doing is right.

You don't agree with me? So what. You are not saying I am factually wrong to think those things above are right or good are you? Sure you can disagree with me, but most people disagree with my choice of woman that I like, same thing, so what. I am not factually wrong am I?

Oh, I also think thick crust pizza tastes better than thin crust pizza.

hmmmm... to whom are you sending this challenge? Are we supposed to debate on your biased statement or can we debate the real ones underneath? You are aware that ethics and morality have more declination than subjectivism and objectivism.

PS: Nitpicking, but important, 3000 persons died during the attack on the World Trade Center not 5000.

Nope, I just want people that talk the talk to walk the walk....If morality was truly subjective, then to be consistent, the only reaction to this post would be something along the lines of "I disagree with your view, but you aren't wrong, it is just your opinion which is just as valid as anyone else's and has to be respected".
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29-07-2015, 08:40 PM
RE: Morality
I repeat what I said before... Islam is a non-ethical system.

Everything, good, bad or indifferent is by the pre-determined will of Allah.

Drinking Beverage

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29-07-2015, 09:32 PM
RE: Morality
(29-07-2015 07:25 PM)Hambone Wrote:  Ok, if morality is not objective, then put your money where your mouth is.....

In my opinion, I think what those Sept 11 hijackers did was right, killing those 5000 people in the World Trade Centre and inflicting the misery on all there family and friends and putting fear into every passengers and America in general. Good on them, I really support what they did.

I also support what ISIS do, cutting off the heads of innocent people, I think what they are doing is right.

You don't agree with me? So what. You are not saying I am factually wrong to think those things above are right or good are you? Sure you can disagree with me, but most people disagree with my choice of woman that I like, same thing, so what. I am not factually wrong am I?

I'll stand by my previously-stated position that this is a false dichotomy and that there's more categories beyond "objective universal moral truth" and "subjective personal opinion or preference".

I would also repeat my challenge -- more of a basic inescapable requirement to even have this conversation, really -- for you to give a precise and robust definition of objective morality.

(29-07-2015 07:25 PM)Hambone Wrote:  Oh, I also think thick crust pizza tastes better than thin crust pizza.

Gasp YOU OBJECTIVELY IMMORAL BASTARD! Tongue

"If I ignore the alternatives, the only option is God; I ignore them; therefore God." -- The Syllogism of Fail
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29-07-2015, 09:37 PM
RE: Morality
(29-07-2015 09:32 PM)Reltzik Wrote:  
(29-07-2015 07:25 PM)Hambone Wrote:  Ok, if morality is not objective, then put your money where your mouth is.....

In my opinion, I think what those Sept 11 hijackers did was right, killing those 5000 people in the World Trade Centre and inflicting the misery on all there family and friends and putting fear into every passengers and America in general. Good on them, I really support what they did.

I also support what ISIS do, cutting off the heads of innocent people, I think what they are doing is right.

You don't agree with me? So what. You are not saying I am factually wrong to think those things above are right or good are you? Sure you can disagree with me, but most people disagree with my choice of woman that I like, same thing, so what. I am not factually wrong am I?

I'll stand by my previously-stated position that this is a false dichotomy and that there's more categories beyond "objective universal moral truth" and "subjective personal opinion or preference".

I would also repeat my challenge -- more of a basic inescapable requirement to even have this conversation, really -- for you to give a precise and robust definition of objective morality.

(29-07-2015 07:25 PM)Hambone Wrote:  Oh, I also think thick crust pizza tastes better than thin crust pizza.

Gasp YOU OBJECTIVELY IMMORAL BASTARD! Tongue

Something is either objective or subjective, that is factual or non factual. What other options are there?
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29-07-2015, 09:45 PM
RE: Morality
(29-07-2015 09:37 PM)Hambone Wrote:  
(29-07-2015 09:32 PM)Reltzik Wrote:  I'll stand by my previously-stated position that this is a false dichotomy and that there's more categories beyond "objective universal moral truth" and "subjective personal opinion or preference".

I would also repeat my challenge -- more of a basic inescapable requirement to even have this conversation, really -- for you to give a precise and robust definition of objective morality.


Gasp YOU OBJECTIVELY IMMORAL BASTARD! Tongue

Something is either objective or subjective, that is factual or non factual. What other options are there?

Declaring a dichotomy is not the same as drawing the line between the elements of the dichotomy. Please describe precisely the distinction you are drawing between objectivity and subjectivity. I know several places where you MIGHT be drawing the line, but I don't know where you ARE drawing it. In particular, please model what the existence of an objective morality would look like or indicate.

"If I ignore the alternatives, the only option is God; I ignore them; therefore God." -- The Syllogism of Fail
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29-07-2015, 10:40 PM
RE: Morality
(29-07-2015 09:37 PM)Hambone Wrote:  ...
Something is either objective or subjective, that is factual or non factual. What other options are there?

Nope.

That a service was rated by 90% of customers as "excellent" is a subjective fact.

Cool

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29-07-2015, 11:18 PM
RE: Morality
(29-07-2015 09:45 PM)Reltzik Wrote:  
(29-07-2015 09:37 PM)Hambone Wrote:  Something is either objective or subjective, that is factual or non factual. What other options are there?

Declaring a dichotomy is not the same as drawing the line between the elements of the dichotomy. Please describe precisely the distinction you are drawing between objectivity and subjectivity. I know several places where you MIGHT be drawing the line, but I don't know where you ARE drawing it. In particular, please model what the existence of an objective morality would look like or indicate.

Are you asking me to prove objective morality? I cant prove OM, but there are many things that cannot be proven but we are fully rational and justified in believing it to be true. The way it would like is when we use real life examples, and the way we deal with them. As I used the example with the world trade centre and ISIS. Will you conclude the same way you would if you disagree with my taste in woman? If you do, this indicates that you are appealing to a factual/truth.
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