Morality
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28-07-2015, 09:36 AM
RE: Morality
(28-07-2015 09:25 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(28-07-2015 09:24 AM)Hambone Wrote:  If there was NO INTENTIONALITY for the laws to be the way they are, then they occurred randomly.

No. You don't understand what the word "random" means.

Unless he's using the term as defined here, by the definition google shows:

"adjective: random

made, done, happening, or chosen without method or conscious decision.
"a random sample of 100 households"

synonyms: unsystematic, unmethodical, arbitrary, unplanned, undirected, casual, indiscriminate, nonspecific, haphazard, stray, erratic; chance, accidental"

His use is perfectly consistent with this definition.
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28-07-2015, 09:38 AM
RE: Morality
(28-07-2015 09:36 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(28-07-2015 09:25 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  No. You don't understand what the word "random" means.

Unless he's using the term as defined here, by the definition google shows:

"adjective: random

made, done, happening, or chosen without method or conscious decision.
"a random sample of 100 households"

synonyms: unsystematic, unmethodical, arbitrary, unplanned, undirected, casual, indiscriminate, nonspecific, haphazard, stray, erratic; chance, accidental"

His use is perfectly consistent with this definition.

What a surprise, you don't get it either. Drinking Beverage

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
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28-07-2015, 09:39 AM
RE: Morality
http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...#pid820773

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
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28-07-2015, 09:46 AM
RE: Morality
(28-07-2015 09:38 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  What a surprise, you don't get it either. Drinking Beverage

No, I read the thread in which you defined random. It's just that's not the only definition of the term. A term can have more than one meaning.

I provided another definition, from google, which you might not align with the way you defined it earlier, but it's still another perfectly accurate definition of it.
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28-07-2015, 09:49 AM
RE: Morality
(28-07-2015 09:46 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(28-07-2015 09:38 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  What a surprise, you don't get it either. Drinking Beverage

No, I read the thread in which you defined random. It's just that's not the only definition of the term. A term can have more than one meaning.

I provided another definition, from google, which you might not align with the way you defined it earlier, but it's still another perfectly accurate definition of it.

You. Are. A. Moron.

Distinguish between a random pattern that is uncaused, and a random pattern that is the result of complex interactions with negative and positive feedbacks and identify how each one results in the random pattern.

Random does not mean uncaused. Random does not mean caused. Random means indistinguishable from caused or uncaused. So, if some moron were to claim that anything arose out of the universe that was random AND uncaused, they'd need to show that it is actually uncaused and not that whatever they are claiming is the result of multiple interactions.

I'll wait Drinking Beverage

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
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28-07-2015, 09:53 AM
RE: Morality
(28-07-2015 09:49 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(28-07-2015 09:46 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  No, I read the thread in which you defined random. It's just that's not the only definition of the term. A term can have more than one meaning.

I provided another definition, from google, which you might not align with the way you defined it earlier, but it's still another perfectly accurate definition of it.

You. Are. A. Moron.

Distinguish between a random pattern that is uncaused, and a random pattern that is the result of complex interactions with negative and positive feedbacks and identify how each one results in the random pattern.

Random does not mean uncaused. Random does not mean caused. Random means indistinguishable from caused or uncaused. So, if some moron were to claim that anything arose out of the universe that was random AND uncaused, they'd need to show that it is actually uncaused and not that whatever they are claiming is the result of multiple interactions.

I'll wait Drinking Beverage

Let's just be clear here, so we avoid talking past each other. Do you disagree with the definition that was presented by me earlier:

Random:
"made, done, happening, or chosen without method or conscious decision."
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28-07-2015, 09:54 AM
RE: Morality
(28-07-2015 09:53 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(28-07-2015 09:49 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  You. Are. A. Moron.

Distinguish between a random pattern that is uncaused, and a random pattern that is the result of complex interactions with negative and positive feedbacks and identify how each one results in the random pattern.

Random does not mean uncaused. Random does not mean caused. Random means indistinguishable from caused or uncaused. So, if some moron were to claim that anything arose out of the universe that was random AND uncaused, they'd need to show that it is actually uncaused and not that whatever they are claiming is the result of multiple interactions.

I'll wait Drinking Beverage

Let's just be clear here, so we avoid talking past each other. Do you disagree with the definition that was presented by me earlier:

Random:
"made, done, happening, or chosen without method or conscious decision."

NO I DON'T AGREE WITH THAT DEFINITION BECAUSE THERE IS NOTHING ABOUT A PATTERN THAT IS NOT RANDOM THAT REQUIRES METHOD OR CONSCIOUS DECISION EITHER.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
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28-07-2015, 09:55 AM
RE: Morality
Ok, I think to sum up, the best way in my opinion, is to use real life examples, how we actually live out lives.

Lets use 2 times.......rape and taste in food.

For the sake of the argument, lets assume I think rape and torture is good and I think GRAPES taste good and Olives are terrible.

Lets also say you don't think rape and torture is good and you say OLIVES taste great and GRAPES are terrible.

Suppose we are at the dinner table, and I am eating grapes and I comment on how beautiful they are. Typically, you may reply with, "nah, grapes are disgusting, I hate them, olives taste better". Now, will you tell me that I am WRONG in enjoying those grapes? Of course not. Will you tell me I am WRONG for thinking grapes taste better than olives? Of course not. Simply because you realise that taste in food is subjective. Notice because they are subjective, there is no right or wrong attached to it? To assign a right or wrong to it, is a categorical error. It is as incoherent as asking what does the number 7 smell like.

You can only say, no, I think olives are better than grapes. But in saying this, you are NOT making an appeal to FACT, just mere opinion, which means nothing.

Now, suppose I start telling while I am eating grapes that for the past 6 months, I have had a young 6 year old girl in my garage whom I have been raping and torturing for hours and hours a day and then I finally killed her.....what would your reaction be?

If morality is SUBJECTIVE, then your conclusion or commentary MUST be the SAME as the discussion on food. That is, you cannot tell me that I am wrong with what I just did, as there are no rights or wrongs with subjective morality, just opinion. If you attempt to claim that what I did was wrong, it is just as valid as you thinking olives taste better than grapes...No one is right or wrong, it doesn't mean anything.

But is that how we actually live our lives? I don't think so. When we look at what ISIS do, what Stalin did etc etc, those things intuitively appear to be factually wrong. This is obvious. Experience tells us, some things are factually right and wrong.

How can I prove these facts? Well, there are many things that we believe to be rationally true, such as the existence of other minds, the reality of the external world, the past etc, which cannot be proven, but we all feel rational in believing them to be true, just as the existence of objective morality...

Think about it will you HONESTLY react the SAME way to me eating grapes (which you dislike) as when I tell you what I had been doing to that girl (which you also dislike)? Experience tells us.....no. Experience tell us, you will make a claim to fact that what I did was wrong. In my opinion, any response other than this, is simply lip service to avoid the logical conclusion.
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28-07-2015, 09:57 AM
RE: Morality
(28-07-2015 09:55 AM)Hambone Wrote:  Ok, I think to sum up, the best way in my opinion, is to use real life examples, how we actually live out lives.

Lets use 2 times.......rape and taste in food.

For the sake of the argument, lets assume I think rape and torture is good and I think GRAPES taste good and Olives are terrible.

Lets also say you don't think rape and torture is good and you say OLIVES taste great and GRAPES are terrible.

Suppose we are at the dinner table, and I am eating grapes and I comment on how beautiful they are. Typically, you may reply with, "nah, grapes are disgusting, I hate them, olives taste better". Now, will you tell me that I am WRONG in enjoying those grapes? Of course not. Will you tell me I am WRONG for thinking grapes taste better than olives? Of course not. Simply because you realise that taste in food is subjective. Notice because they are subjective, there is no right or wrong attached to it? To assign a right or wrong to it, is a categorical error. It is as incoherent as asking what does the number 7 smell like.

You can only say, no, I think olives are better than grapes. But in saying this, you are NOT making an appeal to FACT, just mere opinion, which means nothing.

Now, suppose I start telling while I am eating grapes that for the past 6 months, I have had a young 6 year old girl in my garage whom I have been raping and torturing for hours and hours a day and then I finally killed her.....what would your reaction be?

If morality is SUBJECTIVE, then your conclusion or commentary MUST be the SAME as the discussion on food. That is, you cannot tell me that I am wrong with what I just did, as there are no rights or wrongs with subjective morality, just opinion. If you attempt to claim that what I did was wrong, it is just as valid as you thinking olives taste better than grapes...No one is right or wrong, it doesn't mean anything.

But is that how we actually live our lives? I don't think so. When we look at what ISIS do, what Stalin did etc etc, those things intuitively appear to be factually wrong. This is obvious. Experience tells us, some things are factually right and wrong.

How can I prove these facts? Well, there are many things that we believe to be rationally true, such as the existence of other minds, the reality of the external world, the past etc, which cannot be proven, but we all feel rational in believing them to be true, just as the existence of objective morality...

Think about it will you HONESTLY react the SAME way to me eating grapes (which you dislike) as when I tell you what I had been doing to that girl (which you also dislike)? Experience tells us.....no. Experience tell us, you will make a claim to fact that what I did was wrong. In my opinion, any response other than this, is simply lip service to avoid the logical conclusion.

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Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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28-07-2015, 10:05 AM
RE: Morality
Bearded dude, did you have a rebuttal?
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