Morality absent of religion
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29-08-2013, 05:35 PM
Morality absent of religion
Was presented with the morality cant exist with out religion argument today. I am new to debating about these topics. But that rationale i find to be disturbingly skewed.

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29-08-2013, 05:53 PM
RE: Morality absent of religion
The commonly used response is to reverse the question... ask them if the only reason they don't murder, rape and steal is because of God. You can't lose on that one...

If they answer yes, it suggests that the only reason for their being moral is out of fear of God or hell... whereas you can claim to be moral for morality's sake.

If they answer no, then they've proved your argument for you.

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29-08-2013, 06:07 PM
RE: Morality absent of religion
(29-08-2013 05:53 PM)Paranoidsam Wrote:  The commonly used response is to reverse the question... ask them if the only reason they don't murder, rape and steal is because of God. You can't lose on that one...

If they answer yes, it suggests that the only reason for their being moral is out of fear of God or hell... whereas you can claim to be moral for morality's sake.

If they answer no, then they've proved your argument for you.
Clever i like it!

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29-08-2013, 06:19 PM
RE: Morality absent of religion
(29-08-2013 05:35 PM)sequoyah Wrote:  Was presented with the morality cant exist with out religion argument today. I am new to debating about these topics. But that rationale i find to be disturbingly skewed.
In my opinion we are better off without the concept of morality.
The morality concept seems to give people an excuse to force their opinions onto others. e.g. Some Christians think homosexuality is immoral thus they seek to make it illegal.
If we do away with moral judgement and simply focus on our own lives, realising that our own actions have consequences on ourselves and on our society, then we will all be much better off. It will lead to a more tolerant and diverse society.
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29-08-2013, 06:43 PM
RE: Morality absent of religion
Morality develops in social animals. It is necessary to create group cohesion and support group survival. We have morality because we are an interdependent social species that requires group cooperation to endure our environment. Behavior that is offensive or harmful to the group erodes group cooperation and endangers the individuals in it.
This is why civilizations universally prohibit in group murder, theft, adultery and rape. These are human values couched in religion.

You can lead a theist to reason, but, you cannot make him think.
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29-08-2013, 06:53 PM
RE: Morality absent of religion
(29-08-2013 06:43 PM)NoSkyDaddy Wrote:  Morality develops in social animals. It is necessary to create group cohesion and support group survival. We have morality because we are an interdependent social species that requires group cooperation to endure our environment. Behavior that is offensive or harmful to the group erodes group cooperation and endangers the individuals in it.
This is why civilizations universally prohibit in group murder, theft, adultery and rape. These are human values couched in religion.

I consider my self informed and educated now. Thank you for your contribution to this thread!

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29-08-2013, 06:56 PM
RE: Morality absent of religion
I also am finding myself becoming more and more militant in my views as an athesist. The more I research the more militant I become. I still am not equiped to take on debates like I would like but I will in the times to come.

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29-08-2013, 07:03 PM
RE: Morality absent of religion
Religious people generally don't like the fact that our morality evolved simply because it was beneficial to our species. But whether they like it or not, it's a scientific fact...

I think they're afraid the world will descend into moral nihilism, simply because of morality's naturalistic origins.

But then it seems many think that if we can explain something about us or the universe, then it cannot be special or wonderful. So for the world to be magical, special or beautiful we must be ignorant of it's workings.

It's something I used to think as a theist... I wondered how scientists see the universe. Do they see it as beautiful, majestic and wonderful, or just cold, hard facts and equations? I've since realized that it's very much the former, it's precisely because of beauty, majesty and wonder that they have become scientists. Facts and equations simply underpin it.

It's why I think science and religion are totally incompatible... science advocates knowledge, religion advocates ignorance.

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29-08-2013, 07:19 PM
RE: Morality absent of religion
(29-08-2013 07:03 PM)Paranoidsam Wrote:  It's why I think science and religion are totally incompatible...

On the contrary, think your post describes how they are already compatible.

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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29-08-2013, 10:54 PM
RE: Morality absent of religion
(29-08-2013 07:03 PM)Paranoidsam Wrote:  Religious people generally don't like the fact that our morality evolved simply because it was beneficial to our species. But whether they like it or not, it's a scientific fact...
I disagree. Theists often argue along a philosophical stance. They believe that morality is objective and that in order for it to be objective there must be a definer of morality. They assign that role to their god.
Without a defner of morality then there is no objective morality. The morality that atheists claim to have is subjective morality which is no different to a personal opinion. Theists don't classify personal opinion as morality thus philosophically they don't believe that atheists can have a moral standard.
Science holds no position on morality. It is not something that is measurable.
(29-08-2013 07:03 PM)Paranoidsam Wrote:  It's something I used to think as a theist... I wondered how scientists see the universe. Do they see it as beautiful, majestic and wonderful, or just cold, hard facts and equations? I've since realized that it's very much the former, it's precisely because of beauty, majesty and wonder that they have become scientists. Facts and equations simply underpin it.
Richard Dawkins - The Greatest Show on Earth.
Richard Dawkins - The magic of reality
Are both great books, showing science to be a beautiful, amazing and wonderful thing.
(29-08-2013 07:03 PM)Paranoidsam Wrote:  It's why I think science and religion are totally incompatible... science advocates knowledge, religion advocates ignorance.
Science is not about knowledge. Science is about the discovery and understanding of material naturalism, because that offers measurable and testable consistency. This is only materialistic knowledge or philosophical materialism.
Religion is not about ignorance. Religions is about theology. It claims to present an understanding of the supernatural. Believers could claim this to be spiritual knowledge.
Science and religion do not need to overlap, they do not need to be incompatible.
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