Morality absent of religion
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29-08-2013, 11:43 PM
RE: Morality absent of religion
(29-08-2013 06:19 PM)Stevil Wrote:  In my opinion we are better off without the concept of morality.

(29-08-2013 06:19 PM)Stevil Wrote:  If we do away with moral judgement and simply focus on our own lives, realising that our own actions have consequences on ourselves and on our society, then we will all be much better off.

That's kinda what morality is. Just sayin.....

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
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30-08-2013, 12:08 AM
RE: Morality absent of religion
All you have to do is look at it from the viewpoint of animals. There are many animals who exhibit morality and they are free from religion. Chimpanzees for example.

Yes, I know we are animals too, but we invented this horrible thing called religion.
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30-08-2013, 12:24 AM
RE: Morality absent of religion












Yep.

"Mankind must put an end to war, or war will put an end to mankind." -John F Kennedy

The way to see by Faith is to shut the eye of Reason.” -Benjamin Franklin

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30-08-2013, 12:35 AM
RE: Morality absent of religion
(29-08-2013 11:43 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  
(29-08-2013 06:19 PM)Stevil Wrote:  If we do away with moral judgement and simply focus on our own lives, realising that our own actions have consequences on ourselves and on our society, then we will all be much better off.

That's kinda what morality is. Just sayin.....
Nope, that's conflating disparate ideas together.

Morality is a distinction between good and bad, and with the expectation that all people ought to behave good and not bad.

Realising the consequences of your own actions, however one decides to interpret consequences is a personal thing, not a judgement on others, not an expectation of other's actions as to what they should or shouldn't do.
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30-08-2013, 01:21 AM
RE: Morality absent of religion
(30-08-2013 12:24 AM)ShirubaDangan Wrote:  Yep.

QualiaSoup... awesome, always.

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30-08-2013, 08:17 AM
RE: Morality absent of religion
(29-08-2013 10:54 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(29-08-2013 07:03 PM)Paranoidsam Wrote:  Religious people generally don't like the fact that our morality evolved simply because it was beneficial to our species. But whether they like it or not, it's a scientific fact...
I disagree. Theists often argue along a philosophical stance. They believe that morality is objective and that in order for it to be objective there must be a definer of morality. They assign that role to their god.
Without a defner of morality then there is no objective morality. The morality that atheists claim to have is subjective morality which is no different to a personal opinion. Theists don't classify personal opinion as morality thus philosophically they don't believe that atheists can have a moral standard.
Science holds no position on morality. It is not something that is measurable.
(29-08-2013 07:03 PM)Paranoidsam Wrote:  It's something I used to think as a theist... I wondered how scientists see the universe. Do they see it as beautiful, majestic and wonderful, or just cold, hard facts and equations? I've since realized that it's very much the former, it's precisely because of beauty, majesty and wonder that they have become scientists. Facts and equations simply underpin it.
Richard Dawkins - The Greatest Show on Earth.
Richard Dawkins - The magic of reality
Are both great books, showing science to be a beautiful, amazing and wonderful thing.
(29-08-2013 07:03 PM)Paranoidsam Wrote:  It's why I think science and religion are totally incompatible... science advocates knowledge, religion advocates ignorance.
Science is not about knowledge. Science is about the discovery and understanding of material naturalism, because that offers measurable and testable consistency. This is only materialistic knowledge or philosophical materialism.
Religion is not about ignorance. Religions is about theology. It claims to present an understanding of the supernatural. Believers could claim this to be spiritual knowledge.
Science and religion do not need to overlap, they do not need to be incompatible.

Religion very much advocates ignorance. Claiming to know all the answers already, without evidence, logic or testing. Just look at the modern fundamentalist movement, and historical cases of heresy.

As I've said before, in my own experience I was discouraged from reading scientific literature, as it was "not for us to know".

Ecclesiastes 1:18 - "He who increases knowledge, increases sorrow"

Martin Luther -[i]"Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense and understanding."

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30-08-2013, 08:27 AM
RE: Morality absent of religion
(30-08-2013 12:35 AM)Stevil Wrote:  
(29-08-2013 11:43 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  That's kinda what morality is. Just sayin.....
Nope, that's conflating disparate ideas together.

Morality is a distinction between good and bad, and with the expectation that all people ought to behave good and not bad.

Realising the consequences of your own actions, however one decides to interpret consequences is a personal thing, not a judgement on others, not an expectation of other's actions as to what they should or shouldn't do.

Okay. You say tomato....Drinking Beverage

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
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30-08-2013, 08:29 AM
RE: Morality absent of religion
(30-08-2013 12:35 AM)Stevil Wrote:  
(29-08-2013 11:43 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  That's kinda what morality is. Just sayin.....
Nope, that's conflating disparate ideas together.

Morality is a distinction between good and bad, and with the expectation that all people ought to behave good and not bad.

Realising the consequences of your own actions, however one decides to interpret consequences is a personal thing, not a judgement on others, not an expectation of other's actions as to what they should or shouldn't do.

Morality - The conscious consideration of the consequences of my actions
Morality has nothing to do with how we expect others to act. That's more of a social pressure.
You can use morality as a social pressure if you want.
When you make a distinction between good and bad, you are consciously evaluating and realizing the consequences of your actions and labeling them as good or bad.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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30-08-2013, 08:57 AM
RE: Morality absent of religion
(29-08-2013 06:43 PM)NoSkyDaddy Wrote:  Morality develops in social animals. It is necessary to create group cohesion and support group survival. We have morality because we are an interdependent social species that requires group cooperation to endure our environment. Behavior that is offensive or harmful to the group erodes group cooperation and endangers the individuals in it.

Which makes morality a bit like homosexuality, which promotes pack harmony in groups with a single dominant male.

There, that one should also go down quite well with the religious right.
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30-08-2013, 09:46 AM
RE: Morality absent of religion
(29-08-2013 06:53 PM)sequoyah Wrote:  
(29-08-2013 06:43 PM)NoSkyDaddy Wrote:  Morality develops in social animals. It is necessary to create group cohesion and support group survival. We have morality because we are an interdependent social species that requires group cooperation to endure our environment. Behavior that is offensive or harmful to the group erodes group cooperation and endangers the individuals in it.
This is why civilizations universally prohibit in group murder, theft, adultery and rape. These are human values couched in religion.

I consider my self informed and educated now. Thank you for your contribution to this thread!

Have them watch this video:





You may also find the the latter half of my article useful:

http://apeimmortal.wordpress.com/2013/06...-of-steel/
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