Morality absent of religion
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30-08-2013, 06:41 PM
RE: Morality absent of religion
(30-08-2013 06:08 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(30-08-2013 06:04 PM)Paranoidsam Wrote:  Between 800 AD and and 1100 AD, Islam led the world in science and mathematics, yet today only fragments of their discoveries remain. Some historians put it down to one Imam called Abu Hamid Al-Ghazali, who declared science and mathematics to be the work of the devil. Within just a few years, every library in the Islamic world was burned to the ground, and their works lost forever.

Well; let's be fair. The Mongols had a large part in that too!

I dunno about that... but I do know that Al-Ghazali declared science and mathematics to be the devil's work, and ordered the destruction of libraries.

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30-08-2013, 07:26 PM
RE: Morality absent of religion
Nice debate, guys. I have been enjoying reading it.

As mentioned, a definition of 'morality' is required.

But it seems that there is agreement that:
1. Morality is subjective (what one person or society deems to be right/wrong, good/evil differs from another person or society) i.e. it's contextual not intrinsic.
2. There are no 'absolutes' (ends of a scale) whether defined by a deity or documented by one (Euthyphro)
3. Intrinsic or objective morality can exist only if, first, a set of values has been defined e.g. deciding that preservation of human life is desirable.

In the Business/IT management/governance world where I do training, we use the word 'ethics' (derived from values) and no one gets angry.

Smile

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30-08-2013, 07:35 PM
RE: Morality absent of religion
(30-08-2013 07:26 PM)DLJ Wrote:  Nice debate, guys. I have been enjoying reading it.

As mentioned, a definition of 'morality' is required.

But it seems that there is agreement that:
1. Morality is subjective (what one person or society deems to be right/wrong, good/evil differs from another person or society) i.e. it's contextual not intrinsic.
2. There are no 'absolutes' (ends of a scale) whether defined by a deity or documented by one (Euthyphro)
3. Intrinsic or objective morality can exist only if, first, a set of values has been defined e.g. deciding that preservation of human life is desirable.

In the Business/IT management/governance world where I do training, we use the word 'ethics' (derived from values) and no one gets angry.

Smile

So how do we differentiate moral from ethical?

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
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30-08-2013, 07:41 PM
RE: Morality absent of religion
(30-08-2013 07:35 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  
(30-08-2013 07:26 PM)DLJ Wrote:  Nice debate, guys. I have been enjoying reading it.

As mentioned, a definition of 'morality' is required.

But it seems that there is agreement that:
1. Morality is subjective (what one person or society deems to be right/wrong, good/evil differs from another person or society) i.e. it's contextual not intrinsic.
2. There are no 'absolutes' (ends of a scale) whether defined by a deity or documented by one (Euthyphro)
3. Intrinsic or objective morality can exist only if, first, a set of values has been defined e.g. deciding that preservation of human life is desirable.

In the Business/IT management/governance world where I do training, we use the word 'ethics' (derived from values) and no one gets angry.

Smile

So how do we differentiate moral from ethical?

You delete the moral and go with the ethical, duh.

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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30-08-2013, 07:44 PM
RE: Morality absent of religion
(30-08-2013 07:35 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  
(30-08-2013 07:26 PM)DLJ Wrote:  Nice debate, guys. I have been enjoying reading it.

As mentioned, a definition of 'morality' is required.

But it seems that there is agreement that:
1. Morality is subjective (what one person or society deems to be right/wrong, good/evil differs from another person or society) i.e. it's contextual not intrinsic.
2. There are no 'absolutes' (ends of a scale) whether defined by a deity or documented by one (Euthyphro)
3. Intrinsic or objective morality can exist only if, first, a set of values has been defined e.g. deciding that preservation of human life is desirable.

In the Business/IT management/governance world where I do training, we use the word 'ethics' (derived from values) and no one gets angry.

Smile

So how do we differentiate moral from ethical?

I googled...

"ethics plural of eth·ics (Noun)
Noun
Moral principles that govern a person's or group's behavior.
The moral correctness of specified conduct.
Synonyms
morality - morals - ethic - moral
"

That made me chuckle.

"mo·ral·i·ty
/məˈralətē/
Noun
Principles concerning the distinction between right and wrong or good and bad behavior.
Behavior as it is affected by the observation of these principles.
Synonyms
moral - morals - ethics - virtue
"

"eth·i·cal
/ˈeTHikəl/
Adjective
Of or relating to moral principles or the branch of knowledge dealing with these.
Morally correct.
Synonyms
ethic - moral
"

I'm just saying that, given I have many muslims, christian, buddhists etc in my classes, the word 'ethics' has no emotional reaction but if I mention 'morality' there is often a palpable tension in the room.

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30-08-2013, 07:54 PM
RE: Morality absent of religion
(30-08-2013 07:26 PM)DLJ Wrote:  In the Business/IT management/governance world where I do training, we use the word 'ethics' (derived from values) and no one gets angry.
(30-08-2013 07:44 PM)DLJ Wrote:  "ethics plural of eth·ics (Noun)
Noun
Moral principles that govern a person's or group's behavior.
The moral correctness of specified conduct.
Synonyms
morality - morals - ethic - moral
"

That made me chuckle.

"mo·ral·i·ty
/məˈralətē/
Noun
Principles concerning the distinction between right and wrong or good and bad behavior.
Behavior as it is affected by the observation of these principles.
Synonyms
moral - morals - ethics - virtue
"

"eth·i·cal
/ˈeTHikəl/
Adjective
Of or relating to moral principles or the branch of knowledge dealing with these.
Morally correct.
Synonyms
ethic - moral
"

I'm just saying that, given I have many muslims, christian, buddhists etc in my classes, the word 'ethics' has no emotional reaction but if I mention 'morality' there is often a palpable tension in the room.

Ethics comes from the Latin ethica which comes from the Greek ἠθικός [ethikos] which means... morals.

Big Grin

I have had it suggested to me that morality is intensive and ethics are extensive. This may not have been an entirely serious suggestion.

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30-08-2013, 08:02 PM
RE: Morality absent of religion
(30-08-2013 06:41 PM)Paranoidsam Wrote:  
(30-08-2013 06:08 PM)cjlr Wrote:  Well; let's be fair. The Mongols had a large part in that too!

I dunno about that... but I do know that Al-Ghazali declared science and mathematics to be the devil's work, and ordered the destruction of libraries.

Al Ghazali was one backward motherfucker on par with the best of the early Christian bookburners...

but it's not like the sack of Baghdad helped any!
Wink

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30-08-2013, 08:04 PM
RE: Morality absent of religion
Okay. So essentially they are the same. However "morals" seems to hold more emotional weight than "ethics" in everyday conversation. Wonder why that is?

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
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30-08-2013, 08:28 PM
RE: Morality absent of religion
(30-08-2013 08:04 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  Okay. So essentially they are the same. However "morals" seems to hold more emotional weight than "ethics" in everyday conversation. Wonder why that is?

Obviously because 'moral' is a 'bad' word and 'ethical' is a 'good' word. Laughat

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30-08-2013, 08:33 PM
RE: Morality absent of religion
(30-08-2013 08:28 PM)DLJ Wrote:  
(30-08-2013 08:04 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  Okay. So essentially they are the same. However "morals" seems to hold more emotional weight than "ethics" in everyday conversation. Wonder why that is?

Obviously because 'moral' is a 'bad' word and 'ethical' is a 'good' word. Laughat

Oh. Of course!


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But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
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