Morality and Atheism
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09-12-2013, 10:42 PM
RE: Morality and Atheism
(09-12-2013 10:39 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  For starters, 60 years ago the folks who were at the forefront of "eugenics" were the NDSAP, who were led by a Catholic.
I don't want to be nit-picking, but as the resident German here I have to point out that the political party which practiced eugenics was the NSDAP (Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei). Smartass

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09-12-2013, 10:46 PM
RE: Morality and Atheism
(09-12-2013 10:42 PM)Vosur Wrote:  
(09-12-2013 10:39 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  For starters, 60 years ago the folks who were at the forefront of "eugenics" were the NDSAP, who were led by a Catholic.
I don't want to be nit-picking, but as the resident German here I have to point out that the political party which practiced eugenics was the NSDAP (Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei). Smartass

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09-12-2013, 10:54 PM
RE: Morality and Atheism
To return to the premise, here is an example of an ethical system devised quite some time ago by an atheist, and which has no basis whatsoever in superstition/"supernatural" mumbo-jumbo. I spoiled it for length, though it is rather repetitive and one can get the gist by reading the first paragraph and scanning the first sentence of those that follow.

See if you can guess, without looking, who might have come up with it.


Here, householders, a noble disciple reflects thus: 'I am one who wishes to live, who does not wish to die; I desire happiness and am averse to suffering. Since I am one who wishes to live, who does not wish to die; who desires happiness and is averse to suffering; if someone were to take my life, that would not be pleasing and agreeable to me. Now if I were to take the life of another -- of one who wishes to live, who does not wish to die, who desires happiness and is averse to suffering--that would not be pleasing and agreeable to the other either. What is displeasing and disagreeable to me is displeasing and disagreeable to the other too. How can I inflict upon another what is displeasing and disagreeable to me?' Having reflected thus, he himself abstains from the destruction of life, exhorts others to abstain from the destruction of life, and speaks in praise of abstinence from the destruction of life. Thus this bodily conduct of his is purified in three respects.

"Furthermore, householders, a noble disciple reflects thus: 'If someone were to take from me what I have not given, that is, to commit theft, that would not be pleasing and agreeable to me. Now if I were to take from another what he has not given, that is, to commit theft, that would not be pleasing and agreeable to the other either. What is displeasing and disagreeable to me is displeasing and disagreeable to the other too. How can I inflict upon another what is displeasing and disagreeable to me?' Having reflected thus, he himself abstains from taking what is not given, exhorts others to abstain from taking what is not given, and speaks in praise of abstinence from taking what is not given. Thus this bodily conduct of his is purified in three respects.

"Furthermore, householders, a noble disciple reflects thus: 'If someone were to commit adultery with my wives, that would not be pleasing and agreeable to me. Now if I were to commit adultery with the wives of another, that would not be pleasing and agreeable to the other either. What is displeasing and disagreeable to me is displeasing and disagreeable to the other too. How can I inflict upon another what is displeasing and disagreeable to me?' Having reflected thus, he himself abstains from sexual misconduct, exhorts others to abstain from sexual misconduct, and speaks in praise of abstinence from sexual misconduct. Thus this bodily conduct of his is purified in three respects.

"Furthermore, householders, a noble disciple reflects thus: 'If someone were to damage my welfare with false speech, that would not be pleasing and agreeable to me. Now if I were to damage the welfare of another with false speech, that would not be pleasing and agreeable to the other either. What is displeasing and disagreeable to me is displeasing and disagreeable to the other too. How can I inflict upon another what is displeasing and disagreeable to me?' Having reflected thus, he himself abstains from false speech, exhorts others to abstain from false speech, and speaks in praise of abstinence from false speech. Thus this verbal conduct of his is purified in three respects.

"Furthermore, householders, a noble disciple reflects thus: 'If someone were to divide me from my friends by divisive speech, that would not be pleasing and agreeable to me. Now if I were to divide another from his friends by divisive speech, that would not be pleasing and agreeable to the other either. What is displeasing and disagreeable to me is displeasing and disagreeable to the other too. How can I inflict upon another what is displeasing and disagreeable to me?' Having reflected thus, he himself abstains from divisive speech, exhorts others to abstain from divisive speech, and speaks in praise of abstinence from divisive speech. ' Thus this verbal conduct of his is purified in three respects.

"Furthermore, householders, a noble disciple reflects thus: 'If someone were to address me with harsh speech, that would not be pleasing and agreeable to me. Now if I were to address another with harsh speech, that would not be pleasing and agreeable to the other either What is displeasing and disagreeable to me is displeasing and disagreeable to the other too. How can I inflict upon another what is displeasing and disagreeable to me?' Having reflected thus, he himself abstains from harsh speech, exhorts others to abstain from harsh speech, and speaks in praise of abstinence from harsh speech. ' Thus this verbal conduct of his is purified in three respects.

"Furthermore, householders, a noble disciple reflects thus: 'If someone were to address me with frivolous speech and idle chatter, that would not be pleasing and agreeable to me. Now if I were to address another with frivolous speech and idle chatter, that would not be pleasing and agreeable to the other either. What is displeasing and disagreeable to me is displeasing and disagreeable to the other too. How can I inflict upon another what is displeasing and disagreeable to me?' Having reflected thus, he himself abstains from idle chatter, exhorts others to abstain from idle chatter, and speaks in praise of abstinence from idle chatter. Thus this verbal conduct of his is purified in three respects."



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You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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09-12-2013, 11:07 PM
RE: Morality and Atheism
(09-12-2013 10:54 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  To return to the premise, here is an example of an ethical system devised quite some time ago by an atheist, and which has no basis whatsoever in superstition/"supernatural" mumbo-jumbo. I spoiled it for length, though it is rather repetitive and one can get the gist by reading the first paragraph and scanning the first sentence of those that follow.

See if you can guess, without looking, who might have come up with it.


Here, householders, a noble disciple reflects thus: 'I am one who wishes to live, who does not wish to die; I desire happiness and am averse to suffering. Since I am one who wishes to live, who does not wish to die; who desires happiness and is averse to suffering; if someone were to take my life, that would not be pleasing and agreeable to me. Now if I were to take the life of another -- of one who wishes to live, who does not wish to die, who desires happiness and is averse to suffering--that would not be pleasing and agreeable to the other either. What is displeasing and disagreeable to me is displeasing and disagreeable to the other too. How can I inflict upon another what is displeasing and disagreeable to me?' Having reflected thus, he himself abstains from the destruction of life, exhorts others to abstain from the destruction of life, and speaks in praise of abstinence from the destruction of life. Thus this bodily conduct of his is purified in three respects.

"Furthermore, householders, a noble disciple reflects thus: 'If someone were to take from me what I have not given, that is, to commit theft, that would not be pleasing and agreeable to me. Now if I were to take from another what he has not given, that is, to commit theft, that would not be pleasing and agreeable to the other either. What is displeasing and disagreeable to me is displeasing and disagreeable to the other too. How can I inflict upon another what is displeasing and disagreeable to me?' Having reflected thus, he himself abstains from taking what is not given, exhorts others to abstain from taking what is not given, and speaks in praise of abstinence from taking what is not given. Thus this bodily conduct of his is purified in three respects.

"Furthermore, householders, a noble disciple reflects thus: 'If someone were to commit adultery with my wives, that would not be pleasing and agreeable to me. Now if I were to commit adultery with the wives of another, that would not be pleasing and agreeable to the other either. What is displeasing and disagreeable to me is displeasing and disagreeable to the other too. How can I inflict upon another what is displeasing and disagreeable to me?' Having reflected thus, he himself abstains from sexual misconduct, exhorts others to abstain from sexual misconduct, and speaks in praise of abstinence from sexual misconduct. Thus this bodily conduct of his is purified in three respects.

"Furthermore, householders, a noble disciple reflects thus: 'If someone were to damage my welfare with false speech, that would not be pleasing and agreeable to me. Now if I were to damage the welfare of another with false speech, that would not be pleasing and agreeable to the other either. What is displeasing and disagreeable to me is displeasing and disagreeable to the other too. How can I inflict upon another what is displeasing and disagreeable to me?' Having reflected thus, he himself abstains from false speech, exhorts others to abstain from false speech, and speaks in praise of abstinence from false speech. Thus this verbal conduct of his is purified in three respects.

"Furthermore, householders, a noble disciple reflects thus: 'If someone were to divide me from my friends by divisive speech, that would not be pleasing and agreeable to me. Now if I were to divide another from his friends by divisive speech, that would not be pleasing and agreeable to the other either. What is displeasing and disagreeable to me is displeasing and disagreeable to the other too. How can I inflict upon another what is displeasing and disagreeable to me?' Having reflected thus, he himself abstains from divisive speech, exhorts others to abstain from divisive speech, and speaks in praise of abstinence from divisive speech. ' Thus this verbal conduct of his is purified in three respects.

"Furthermore, householders, a noble disciple reflects thus: 'If someone were to address me with harsh speech, that would not be pleasing and agreeable to me. Now if I were to address another with harsh speech, that would not be pleasing and agreeable to the other either What is displeasing and disagreeable to me is displeasing and disagreeable to the other too. How can I inflict upon another what is displeasing and disagreeable to me?' Having reflected thus, he himself abstains from harsh speech, exhorts others to abstain from harsh speech, and speaks in praise of abstinence from harsh speech. ' Thus this verbal conduct of his is purified in three respects.

"Furthermore, householders, a noble disciple reflects thus: 'If someone were to address me with frivolous speech and idle chatter, that would not be pleasing and agreeable to me. Now if I were to address another with frivolous speech and idle chatter, that would not be pleasing and agreeable to the other either. What is displeasing and disagreeable to me is displeasing and disagreeable to the other too. How can I inflict upon another what is displeasing and disagreeable to me?' Having reflected thus, he himself abstains from idle chatter, exhorts others to abstain from idle chatter, and speaks in praise of abstinence from idle chatter. Thus this verbal conduct of his is purified in three respects."



I want to guess Marcus Aurelius

I'm homophobic in the same way that I'm arachnophobic. I'm not scared of gay people but I'm going to scream if I find one in my bath.

I'm. Also homophobic in the same way I'm arachnophobic. I'm scared of spiders but I'd still fuck'em.
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09-12-2013, 11:12 PM
RE: Morality and Atheism
(09-12-2013 11:07 PM)TarzanSmith Wrote:  
(09-12-2013 10:54 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  To return to the premise, here is an example of an ethical system devised quite some time ago by an atheist, and which has no basis whatsoever in superstition/"supernatural" mumbo-jumbo. I spoiled it for length, though it is rather repetitive and one can get the gist by reading the first paragraph and scanning the first sentence of those that follow.

See if you can guess, without looking, who might have come up with it.


Here, householders, a noble disciple reflects thus: 'I am one who wishes to live, who does not wish to die; I desire happiness and am averse to suffering. Since I am one who wishes to live, who does not wish to die; who desires happiness and is averse to suffering; if someone were to take my life, that would not be pleasing and agreeable to me. Now if I were to take the life of another -- of one who wishes to live, who does not wish to die, who desires happiness and is averse to suffering--that would not be pleasing and agreeable to the other either. What is displeasing and disagreeable to me is displeasing and disagreeable to the other too. How can I inflict upon another what is displeasing and disagreeable to me?' Having reflected thus, he himself abstains from the destruction of life, exhorts others to abstain from the destruction of life, and speaks in praise of abstinence from the destruction of life. Thus this bodily conduct of his is purified in three respects.

"Furthermore, householders, a noble disciple reflects thus: 'If someone were to take from me what I have not given, that is, to commit theft, that would not be pleasing and agreeable to me. Now if I were to take from another what he has not given, that is, to commit theft, that would not be pleasing and agreeable to the other either. What is displeasing and disagreeable to me is displeasing and disagreeable to the other too. How can I inflict upon another what is displeasing and disagreeable to me?' Having reflected thus, he himself abstains from taking what is not given, exhorts others to abstain from taking what is not given, and speaks in praise of abstinence from taking what is not given. Thus this bodily conduct of his is purified in three respects.

"Furthermore, householders, a noble disciple reflects thus: 'If someone were to commit adultery with my wives, that would not be pleasing and agreeable to me. Now if I were to commit adultery with the wives of another, that would not be pleasing and agreeable to the other either. What is displeasing and disagreeable to me is displeasing and disagreeable to the other too. How can I inflict upon another what is displeasing and disagreeable to me?' Having reflected thus, he himself abstains from sexual misconduct, exhorts others to abstain from sexual misconduct, and speaks in praise of abstinence from sexual misconduct. Thus this bodily conduct of his is purified in three respects.

"Furthermore, householders, a noble disciple reflects thus: 'If someone were to damage my welfare with false speech, that would not be pleasing and agreeable to me. Now if I were to damage the welfare of another with false speech, that would not be pleasing and agreeable to the other either. What is displeasing and disagreeable to me is displeasing and disagreeable to the other too. How can I inflict upon another what is displeasing and disagreeable to me?' Having reflected thus, he himself abstains from false speech, exhorts others to abstain from false speech, and speaks in praise of abstinence from false speech. Thus this verbal conduct of his is purified in three respects.

"Furthermore, householders, a noble disciple reflects thus: 'If someone were to divide me from my friends by divisive speech, that would not be pleasing and agreeable to me. Now if I were to divide another from his friends by divisive speech, that would not be pleasing and agreeable to the other either. What is displeasing and disagreeable to me is displeasing and disagreeable to the other too. How can I inflict upon another what is displeasing and disagreeable to me?' Having reflected thus, he himself abstains from divisive speech, exhorts others to abstain from divisive speech, and speaks in praise of abstinence from divisive speech. ' Thus this verbal conduct of his is purified in three respects.

"Furthermore, householders, a noble disciple reflects thus: 'If someone were to address me with harsh speech, that would not be pleasing and agreeable to me. Now if I were to address another with harsh speech, that would not be pleasing and agreeable to the other either What is displeasing and disagreeable to me is displeasing and disagreeable to the other too. How can I inflict upon another what is displeasing and disagreeable to me?' Having reflected thus, he himself abstains from harsh speech, exhorts others to abstain from harsh speech, and speaks in praise of abstinence from harsh speech. ' Thus this verbal conduct of his is purified in three respects.

"Furthermore, householders, a noble disciple reflects thus: 'If someone were to address me with frivolous speech and idle chatter, that would not be pleasing and agreeable to me. Now if I were to address another with frivolous speech and idle chatter, that would not be pleasing and agreeable to the other either. What is displeasing and disagreeable to me is displeasing and disagreeable to the other too. How can I inflict upon another what is displeasing and disagreeable to me?' Having reflected thus, he himself abstains from idle chatter, exhorts others to abstain from idle chatter, and speaks in praise of abstinence from idle chatter. Thus this verbal conduct of his is purified in three respects."



I want to guess Marcus Aurelius

Almost 700 years earlier and half a world away.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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09-12-2013, 11:20 PM
RE: Morality and Atheism
(09-12-2013 10:26 PM)TarzanSmith Wrote:  
(09-12-2013 10:24 PM)Juv Wrote:  I'm not aware of any standard atheist morality.Consider

Hence why I used the word somewhat. Most atheist, at least from my experience on here, tend to be a form of humanitarianism.

The plural of atheist, is atheists. Go back and count how many times in this thread you've done it wrong. It's downright immoral. Atheist immorality.

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Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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09-12-2013, 11:24 PM
RE: Morality and Atheism
(09-12-2013 10:36 PM)Vosur Wrote:  
(09-12-2013 09:33 PM)TarzanSmith Wrote:  Atheist were at the forefront of several ideas which might seem atrocious to today's standards, such as eugenics and forced sterilization.
Neither eugenics, nor forced sterilization are modern concepts. Drinking Beverage

(09-12-2013 09:33 PM)TarzanSmith Wrote:  Most atheist have just decided to become humanitarians, but at the turn of the century this was far from the case.
Citation needed.

I think it goes without saying that equating the ideas of atheistic philosophers with those of the general atheistic population is fallacious beyond measure.

You're right it is incredibly fallacious to imply all atheists at the turn of the century were the same as its prominent writers. However, since the common man didn't leave much in terms of writing, and we can see that these writers did often have profound effects upon society, see communism, not to mention that since the writers would have been at the forefront of the public eye. This means that the question would still be relevant in terms of just public conceptions.

I'm homophobic in the same way that I'm arachnophobic. I'm not scared of gay people but I'm going to scream if I find one in my bath.

I'm. Also homophobic in the same way I'm arachnophobic. I'm scared of spiders but I'd still fuck'em.
- my friend Marc
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09-12-2013, 11:28 PM
RE: Morality and Atheism
(09-12-2013 10:39 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  
(09-12-2013 10:30 PM)TarzanSmith Wrote:  Okay fine, then what was I revisioning

For starters, 60-ish years ago the folks who were at the forefront of "eugenics" and forced sterilization were the NDSAP (correction: NSDAP, thanks Vosur), who were led by a Catholic.

Although I doubt Hitler's Catholicity, the fact remains that even if Hitler was a Catholic, he was also significantly opposed by Catholics. This is why the Reichs Concordat was such a big deal. The Vatican attempted to ensure rights for the Catholic Church in Germany in exchange for the silence of the Clergy. One of the main reasons there was a large anti-Hitler movement amongst Catholics was because of his eugenics program.

I'm homophobic in the same way that I'm arachnophobic. I'm not scared of gay people but I'm going to scream if I find one in my bath.

I'm. Also homophobic in the same way I'm arachnophobic. I'm scared of spiders but I'd still fuck'em.
- my friend Marc
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09-12-2013, 11:29 PM
RE: Morality and Atheism
(09-12-2013 11:12 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  
(09-12-2013 11:07 PM)TarzanSmith Wrote:  I want to guess Marcus Aurelius

Almost 700 years earlier and half a world away.

Well that would be Confucius then, wouldn't it.

I'm homophobic in the same way that I'm arachnophobic. I'm not scared of gay people but I'm going to scream if I find one in my bath.

I'm. Also homophobic in the same way I'm arachnophobic. I'm scared of spiders but I'd still fuck'em.
- my friend Marc
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09-12-2013, 11:37 PM
RE: Morality and Atheism
(09-12-2013 11:20 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(09-12-2013 10:26 PM)TarzanSmith Wrote:  Hence why I used the word somewhat. Most atheist, at least from my experience on here, tend to be a form of humanitarianism.

The plural of atheist, is atheists. Go back and count how many times in this thread you've done it wrong. It's downright immoral. Atheist immorality.

4 times. I'm sorry, do I have to go stand in the corner now.Sadcryface

I'm homophobic in the same way that I'm arachnophobic. I'm not scared of gay people but I'm going to scream if I find one in my bath.

I'm. Also homophobic in the same way I'm arachnophobic. I'm scared of spiders but I'd still fuck'em.
- my friend Marc
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