Morality and Atheism
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10-12-2013, 04:07 AM
RE: Morality and Atheism
(10-12-2013 03:55 AM)Vosur Wrote:  
(10-12-2013 03:44 AM)TarzanSmith Wrote:  Buddha was a Hindu.
Citation needed.

Wikipedia: "Siddhartha was born in a royal Hindu family". He believed in Nirvana, which also derives from Hinduism. The name Buddha apparently means one who is akin to God. Buddhism is a highly spiritualized version of Hinduism.

I'm homophobic in the same way that I'm arachnophobic. I'm not scared of gay people but I'm going to scream if I find one in my bath.

I'm. Also homophobic in the same way I'm arachnophobic. I'm scared of spiders but I'd still fuck'em.
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10-12-2013, 04:09 AM
RE: Morality and Atheism
(10-12-2013 01:24 AM)Vosur Wrote:  
(10-12-2013 12:42 AM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  Oh, really? Let's see what Hitler himself said about the matter: “I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so.” Looks pretty convincing to me.
Allow me to cite my copy of "Mein Kampf" to further establish that Hitler was indeed a Christian.

"And so I believe to-day that my conduct is in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator. In standing guard against the Jew I am defending the handiwork of the Lord." (p. 46)

"The yoke of slavery is and always will remain the most unpleasant experience that mankind can endure. Do the Schwabing decadents look upon Germany's lot to-day as 'aesthetic'? Of course, one doesn't discuss such a question with the Jews, because they are the modern inventors of this cultural perfume. Their very existence is an incarnate denial of the beauty of God's image in His creation." (p. 107)

"What we have to fight for is the necessary security for the existence and increase of our race and people, the subsistence of its children and the maintenance of our racial stock unmixed, the freedom and independence of the Fatherland; so that our people may be enabled to fulfil [sic] the mission assigned to it by the Creator." (p. 125)

"It is just at those junctures when the idealistic attitude threatens to disappear that we notice a weakening of this force which is a necessary constituent in the founding and maintenance of the community and is thereby a necessary condition of civilization. As soon as the spirit of egotism begins to prevail among a people then the bonds of the social order break and man, by seeking his own personal happiness, veritably tumbles out of heaven and falls into hell." (p. 160)

"In short, the results of miscegenation are always the following:
(a) The level of the superior race becomes lowered;
(b) physical and mental degeneration sets in, thus leading slowly but steadily towards a progressive drying up of the vital sap.

The act which brings about such a development is a sin against the will of the Eternal Creator. And as a sin this act will be avenged. Man's effort to build up something that contradicts the iron logic of Nature brings him into conflict with those principles to which he himself exclusively owes his own existence. By acting against the laws of Nature he prepares the way that leads to his ruin." (p. 162)

"How devoid of ideals and how ignoble is the whole contemporary system! The fact that the churches join in committing this sin against the image of God, even though they continue to emphasize the dignity of that image, is quite in keeping with their present activities. They talk about the Spirit, but they allow man, as the embodiment of the Spirit, to degenerate to the proletarian level. Then they look on with amazement when they realize how small is the influence of the Christian Faith in their own country and how depraved and ungodly is this riff-raff which is physically degenerate and therefore morally degenerate also. To balance this state of affairs they try to convert the Hottentots and the Zulus and the Kaffirs and to bestow on them the blessings of the Church. While our European people, God be praised and thanked, are left to become the victims of moral depravity, the pious missionary goes out to Central Africa and establishes missionary stations for negroes [sic]. Finally, sound and healthy - though primitive and backward - people will be transformed, under the name of our 'higher civilization', into a motley of lazy and brutalized mongrels." (p. 226)

"Look at the ravages from which our people are suffering daily as a result of being contaminated with Jewish blood. Bear in mind the fact that this poisonous contamination can be eliminated from the national body only after centuries, or perhaps never. Think further of how the process of racial decomposition is debasing and in some cases even destroying the fundamental Aryan qualities of our German people, so that our cultural creativeness as a nation is gradually becoming impotent and we are running the danger, at least in our great cities, of falling to the level where Southern Italy is to-day. This pestilential adulteration of the blood, of which hundreds of thousands of our people take no account, is being systematically practised [sic] by the Jew to-day. Systematically these negroid parasites in our national body corrupt our innocent fair-haired girls and thus destroy something which can no longer be replaced in this world. The two Christian denominations look on with indifference at the profanation and destruction of a noble and unique creature who was given to the world as a gift of God's grace. For the future of the world, however, it does not matter which of the two triumphs over the other, the Catholic or the Protestant. But it does matter whether Aryan humanity survives or perishes. And yet the two Christian denominations are not contending against the destroyer of the Aryan humanity but are trying to destroy one another. Everybody who has the right kind of feeling for his country is solemnly bound, each within his own denomination, to see to it that he is not constantly talking about the Will of God merely from the lips but that in actual fact he fulfils [sic] the Will of God and does not allow God's handiwork to be debased. For it was by the Will of God that men were made of a certain bodily shape, were given their natures and their faculties. Whoever destroy His work wages war against God's Creation and God's will." (p. 310)
Yes, I had to do this before.

I am still unconvinced. However, I don't want this to turn into a "Was Hitler Christian Thread", so let's just agree to disagree.

I'm homophobic in the same way that I'm arachnophobic. I'm not scared of gay people but I'm going to scream if I find one in my bath.

I'm. Also homophobic in the same way I'm arachnophobic. I'm scared of spiders but I'd still fuck'em.
- my friend Marc
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10-12-2013, 04:10 AM
RE: Morality and Atheism
(10-12-2013 03:40 AM)TarzanSmith Wrote:  ...
I am not arguing whether atheists can be moral or not,. Of course they can, it's idiotic to think otherwise. But I just feel the question would not have felt so cut and dry during the turn of the century.

Hmmm.

I think you are going to have to help us out a bit by saying what you mean by 'moral'.

For example, using the frameworks that I teach (that include bits a pieces about ethics) it is OK to kill new born babies.

Do you think that this is moral?

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10-12-2013, 04:11 AM
RE: Morality and Atheism
(10-12-2013 03:58 AM)TarzanSmith Wrote:  
(10-12-2013 12:42 AM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  Oh, really? Let's see what Hitler himself said about the matter: “I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so.” Looks pretty convincing to me.



Oh, really?

[Image: bonhoeffer_hitler-1.jpg]

[Image: Hitler%20and%20church%202.jpg]

[Image: hitler4.jpg]

[Image: priests_salute_hitler.jpg]


Which included the extermination of Jews, which the catholic church looked the other way for.

Like I said that was what was important about the reichs concordat. It bought the silence of the catholic church. It got the church to look the other way. If the Catholic Church was not a major opponent of Hitler then the concordat would be meaningless. Yet it always seems to come up in the list of Catholic atrocities.

The Catholic church was deep in bed with the Fascists, hell the entire Fascist movement grew out of extreme right wing Catholic politics (which is why Italy went for Mussolini) Did you know the catholic church had Hitler's birthday as on official celebration until the end of WW2? There were good Catholics that defied the church and tried to help end the Jewish Pogrom and fight against The rise of the Nazi party in Germany until the Church told them to back off and endorsed Hitler.

This is not speculation this is what the church did and that is why it is in the insanely long list of Catholic atrocities. It is actually impressive that they managed to be so horrible an institution that this is not the worst thing they did in the last 100 years.

Some light reading, to remind ourselves of the history of the Church

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10-12-2013, 04:33 AM
RE: Morality and Atheism
(10-12-2013 04:11 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(10-12-2013 03:58 AM)TarzanSmith Wrote:  Like I said that was what was important about the reichs concordat. It bought the silence of the catholic church. It got the church to look the other way. If the Catholic Church was not a major opponent of Hitler then the concordat would be meaningless. Yet it always seems to come up in the list of Catholic atrocities.

The Catholic church was deep in bed with the Fascists, hell the entire Fascist movement grew out of extreme right wing Catholic politics (which is why Italy went for Mussolini) Did you know the catholic church had Hitler's birthday as on official celebration until the end of WW2? There were good Catholics that defied the church and tried to help end the Jewish Pogrom and fight against The rise of the Nazi party in Germany until the Church told them to back off and endorsed Hitler.

This is not speculation this is what the church did and that is why it is in the insanely long list of Catholic atrocities. It is actually impressive that they managed to be so horrible an institution that this is not the worst thing they did in the last 100 years.

Some light reading, to remind ourselves of the history of the Church
Not going to lie, I thought that was a really shitty top ten list. Only 4 maybe 5 of those things I thought were really that bad.

Anyways, I'm not that surprised that the church supported Fascism. But then Again I'm mostly fascist anyways so maybe I'm biased. Also A lot of people really liked Hitler. That's one of the main reasons he was elected. I don't think it should be a surprise that the church liked him. One of the biggest reasons that people supported Hitler was that he was anti-communist. The church was really anti-communist so it makes sense that they would support Hitler.

I'm homophobic in the same way that I'm arachnophobic. I'm not scared of gay people but I'm going to scream if I find one in my bath.

I'm. Also homophobic in the same way I'm arachnophobic. I'm scared of spiders but I'd still fuck'em.
- my friend Marc
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10-12-2013, 05:13 AM (This post was last modified: 10-12-2013 05:46 AM by Vosur.)
RE: Morality and Atheism
(10-12-2013 04:07 AM)TarzanSmith Wrote:  Wikipedia: "Siddhartha was born in a royal Hindu family".
What's your point? I was born in a Christian family and I'm an atheist.

(10-12-2013 04:07 AM)TarzanSmith Wrote:  He believed in Nirvana, which also derives from Hinduism.
Yes, Buddha believed in Nirvana, but so what? If anything, the fact that he made up his own version instead of following the Hindu one goes to demonstrate that he was not a Hindu.

(10-12-2013 04:07 AM)TarzanSmith Wrote:  The name Buddha apparently means one who is akin to God.
No, the name "Buddha" actually means "enlightened".

(10-12-2013 04:07 AM)TarzanSmith Wrote:  Buddhism is a highly spiritualized version of Hinduism.
I have reason to believe that that assertion is incorrect. Buddha did not believe in any gods, Hindu or otherwise.

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10-12-2013, 06:34 AM
RE: Morality and Atheism
(09-12-2013 09:33 PM)TarzanSmith Wrote:  Most atheist have just decided to become humanitarians, but at the turn of the century this was far from the case.

Humanitarianism isn't an ethical theory. Also, Mill and Bentham both thought of ethics in terms of minimising suffering and maximising happiness (i.e. utilitarianism); that's a major departure from divine command morality which is indifferent to human welfare. Mill and Wolstenecroft laid the philosophical foundations for liberal feminism--which is impossible(?) to justify on Judaeo-Christian grounds--which eventually led to female suffrage.
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10-12-2013, 09:24 AM
RE: Morality and Atheism
(10-12-2013 02:40 AM)DLJ Wrote:  "Furthermore, householders, a noble disciple reflects thus: 'If someone were to address me with frivolous speech and idle chatter, that would not be pleasing and agreeable to me..."



The Buddha had the internet?

Who knew?

Ohmy

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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10-12-2013, 09:28 AM
RE: Morality and Atheism
(10-12-2013 03:58 AM)TarzanSmith Wrote:  
(10-12-2013 12:42 AM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  Oh, really? Let's see what Hitler himself said about the matter: “I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so.” Looks pretty convincing to me.



Oh, really?

[Image: bonhoeffer_hitler-1.jpg]

[Image: Hitler%20and%20church%202.jpg]

[Image: hitler4.jpg]

[Image: priests_salute_hitler.jpg]


Which included the extermination of Jews, which the catholic church looked the other way for.

Like I said that was what was important about the reichs concordat. It bought the silence of the catholic church. It got the church to look the other way. If the Catholic Church was not a major opponent of Hitler then the concordat would be meaningless. Yet it always seems to come up in the list of Catholic atrocities.
And yet you completely ignore his own declaration of his own faith.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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10-12-2013, 09:38 AM (This post was last modified: 10-12-2013 09:50 AM by Taqiyya Mockingbird.)
RE: Morality and Atheism
(10-12-2013 04:07 AM)TarzanSmith Wrote:  
(10-12-2013 03:55 AM)Vosur Wrote:  Citation needed.

Wikipedia: "Siddhartha was born in a royal Hindu family".


See, this is why WIKIpedia is a poor source. A Hindu writes a foo-foo book about the Buddha (Our first clue that it's foo-foo, if we investigate the WIKI citation, should be the title of the first chapter: "Celestial and Divine Child Descends On The Earth") and claims he was a Hindu when Hinduism didn't even exist at the time, and then some idiot cites it in a WIKI article, and then unknowing folks who don't realize that WIKI is cobbled together by ordinary people who don't necessarily have any research skills at all cite it.


Quote:He believed in Nirvana, which also derives from Hinduism.

He hijacked the term and re-defined it to mean inner peace. And no, it wasn't derived from "Hinduism".

Quote: The name Buddha apparently means one who is akin to God.

Um, as Vosur says, "Citation needed". But I'll make it easy for you and say that is completely incorrect, and I will also point out that he never called himself "Buddha". He called himself "the Tathagata", which means, roughly, "one who has gone thus".


Quote:Buddhism is a highly spiritualized version of Hinduism.

No, and what would "spiritualized" even mean in this sentence, anyway?

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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