Morality is like a religion
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18-08-2015, 07:59 PM
RE: Morality is like a religion
(18-08-2015 07:53 PM)Deidre32 Wrote:  
(18-08-2015 07:05 PM)Detective L Ryuzaki Wrote:  Then it would be no different than if a religious person came up to me and said:

"I don't wish to hear your atheistic rambling. As someone who is a religious believer, stop talking!"

The fact is, if this scientific version of good and bad really does exist, then people need to hear this truth regardless of how offensive it is.

Religion and/or a belief in a deity won't cure depression, if that is what you're getting at. And the title of your thread...has nothing to do with depression. I iz confuzed. Unsure

Where I was getting at was that since it was never a proven fact that the moral version of good and bad can make us and our lives good, then people who prefer to live by the moral version of good and bad and choose to believe in it and choose to believe that it makes them and their lives good even while struggling with depression and anhedonia (absence of pleasure), then this would be no different than how a religious believer chooses to believe in his/her religion and becomes offended when his/her religious position is objected.
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18-08-2015, 08:02 PM
RE: Morality is like a religion
(18-08-2015 07:33 PM)Detective L Ryuzaki Wrote:  But do you have actual disproof of my theory?

You don't have a theory. You have a nonsense conclusion that doesn't follow from its premise. No evidence to the contrary is needed, because it falls to pieces completely without any input from anyone.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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18-08-2015, 08:06 PM
RE: Morality is like a religion
(18-08-2015 08:02 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  
(18-08-2015 07:33 PM)Detective L Ryuzaki Wrote:  But do you have actual disproof of my theory?

You don't have a theory. You have a nonsense conclusion that doesn't follow from its premise. No evidence to the contrary is needed, because it falls to pieces completely without any input from anyone.

I think you are missing something here. It is our incentive that makes things and people of good value and worth to us to begin with. Since Robert Sapolsky (a highly intelligent and famous evolutionary biologist) has said that our pleasant emotions (our reward system) is the only incentive an animal (in this case, a human being) has, then it would logically follow that our pleasant emotions are the only things that can give good meaning to our lives. So there is my piece of evidence right there.
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18-08-2015, 08:32 PM (This post was last modified: 18-08-2015 09:41 PM by Detective L Ryuzaki.)
RE: Morality is like a religion
I have come up with a theory here that explains how the moral (personal value judgment) version of good and bad is fake and does not make us and our lives good or bad.  That there is a scientific version of good and bad that humanity and science is unaware of.

It is our incentive that makes things and people of good value and worth to us in the first place.  If we have no incentive to live for anyone or anything, then it would not bother us at all if those things and people were to be taken away from us.  You just wouldn't care.  Therefore, I just don't see how something can be of good value and worth to you without having any incentive to live for it.

Since our pleasant emotions (our reward system) is the only incentive an animal (in this case, a human being) has based upon what Robert Sapolsky has said who is a highly intelligent and famous evolutionary biologist, then it is only our pleasant emotions that can make things and people of good value and worth to us in our lives.  You can search up Robert Sapolsky on http://www.youtube.com and watch his videos.

Our thoughts alone without our pleasant emotions due to depression and/or anhedonia (absence of pleasure) cannot give our lives any good meaning since they are all nothing more than the "thinking" experience of our brains.  They can only experience different thoughts, send pleasure/displeasure signals, and send signals to make us move and express certain tones, acts, and expressions.  But that is it.  They cannot experience any incentives (urges) to live on and pursue our goals and dreams.

Just as how a blind and deaf person cannot give his/herself sight and hearing through his/her thoughts alone, we cannot give our lives any incentive either through our thoughts alone as long as we struggle with depression and/or anhedonia.  Good and bad are senses like sight, hearing, and smell.  They are scientific terms like sight, hearing, and smell.  Our pleasant feelings/emotions are a sense of good meaning in our lives while our unpleasant feelings/emotions are a sense of bad meaning in our lives.

Our thoughts alone can only experience the words and phrases love, joy, happiness, suffering, despair, fear, rage, incentive, etc.  But they cannot actually experience those things since those are scientific terms that have been defined through science as only being our pleasant and unpleasant feelings/emotions and not our thoughts.

Our pleasant feelings/emotions are the scientific version of good and our unpleasant feelings/emotions are the scientific version of bad.  To lament and become frustrated/enraged over losses in your life without your incentive would be your brain fooling itself into thinking it had the incentive to live for those said things and people when it never had it to begin with.  You would be fooling your brain into thinking your life is good and worth living despite your depression and/or anhedonia when it was never true.

I myself struggle with depression and a chronic 24/7 absence of all my pleasant emotions.  This personal experience is what has led me to this theory.  If my theory is wrong, then please prove it wrong.  Otherwise, people would just be believing in the moral version of good and bad like a religion.

In conclusion, morality and the thinking area of our brains alone would not give our lives any good or bad meaning.  It would only be a matter of choices and decisions.  It would only be a matter of avoiding or pursuing certain situations and nothing more.  We wouldn't even refer to the acts of Hitler as being bad.  We would still say that Hitler's life was good since he derived pleasant emotions from harming the Jews.  Morality does not exist.  It would no longer have the terms good and bad for it.  It is all just a matter of how we as human beings socialize and interact and nothing more.  Our pleasant and unpleasant feelings/emotions are a feeling/emotional version of good and bad and not any moral version of good and bad.
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18-08-2015, 08:36 PM
RE: Morality is like a religion
(18-08-2015 08:06 PM)Detective L Ryuzaki Wrote:  I think you are missing something here. It is our incentive that makes things and people of good value and worth to us to begin with. Since Robert Sapolsky (a highly intelligent and famous evolutionary biologist) has said that our pleasant emotions (our reward system) is the only incentive an animal (in this case, a human being) has, then it would logically follow that our pleasant emotions are the only things that can give good meaning to our lives. So there is my piece of evidence right there.

You're free to live only for your own personal pleasure if you like, just as we are free to consider you selfish, immature, and unlikable if you do so.

If the best that you can say for your philosophy is that Ayn Rand thought of it, too, then you really need to rethink things.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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18-08-2015, 08:39 PM
RE: Morality is like a religion
Maybe you could lay your theory out in numerical, summarized points like a hypothesis. And then a piece at a time you explain how you got from A to Z. And I mean literally, your numerical bullet points should be 3 sentences max.
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18-08-2015, 08:39 PM
RE: Morality is like a religion
(18-08-2015 08:36 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  
(18-08-2015 08:06 PM)Detective L Ryuzaki Wrote:  I think you are missing something here. It is our incentive that makes things and people of good value and worth to us to begin with. Since Robert Sapolsky (a highly intelligent and famous evolutionary biologist) has said that our pleasant emotions (our reward system) is the only incentive an animal (in this case, a human being) has, then it would logically follow that our pleasant emotions are the only things that can give good meaning to our lives. So there is my piece of evidence right there.

You're free to live only for your own personal pleasure if you like, just as we are free to consider you selfish, immature, and unlikable if you do so.

If the best that you can say for your philosophy is that Ayn Rand thought of it, too, then you really need to rethink things.

I honestly don't see how this is a philosophy. If we have no incentive to live for anyone or anything, then it would not bother us if those said things and people were to be taken away from us. You just wouldn't care. So I don't see how anyone or anything can be of good value and worth to us and give our lives good meaning without our incentive (pleasant emotions).

There are people who do lament and become enraged over their losses even without their pleasant emotions. But this would only be because they are fooling their brains into thinking they had the incentive when they never did.
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18-08-2015, 08:40 PM
RE: Morality is like a religion
Maybe its just me, but when I read your posts I feel like I'm reading Deepek Chopra.
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18-08-2015, 08:42 PM
RE: Morality is like a religion
(18-08-2015 08:39 PM)Detective L Ryuzaki Wrote:  
(18-08-2015 08:36 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  You're free to live only for your own personal pleasure if you like, just as we are free to consider you selfish, immature, and unlikable if you do so.

If the best that you can say for your philosophy is that Ayn Rand thought of it, too, then you really need to rethink things.

I honestly don't see how this is a philosophy. If we have no incentive to live for anyone or anything, then it would not bother us if those said things and people were to be taken away from us. You just wouldn't care. So I don't see how anyone or anything can be of good value and worth to us and give our lives good meaning without our incentive (pleasant emotions).

There are people who do lament and become enraged over their losses even without their pleasant emotions. But this would only be because they are fooling their brains into thinking they had the incentive when they never did.

Sometimes, depression can be self induced, by say bad choices one might make and now one's life is a mess. But...often times, depression is not self induced, and it has nothing at all to do with a person's choices. That's why it is a tricky thing to compare depression to religion.

Are you religious?

Be true to yourself. Heart
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18-08-2015, 08:42 PM
RE: Morality is like a religion
(18-08-2015 08:32 PM)Detective L Ryuzaki Wrote:  Our pleasant feelings/emotions are the scientific version of good and our unpleasant feelings/emotions are the scientific version of bad.

This is complete nonsense. It is both equivocation and a category error, confusing the physical concept of pleasure with the moral concept of goodness and offering no actual tie between the two other than that you like them. It completely fails to address the fact that what makes one person feel good may cause another pain. By this logic, Hitler was doing the "scientifically good" thing when he orchestrated the Holocaust, because he believed he was doing the right thing.

Yes, I'm aware that I just Godwin'd the thread. No, I don't care, as it is actually an appropriate, valid objection.

There is no "scientific morality", because morality is entirely subjective. And if you're so determined to crowbar one into existence where none is required and still only get as far as Ayn Rand, you need to seriously rethink your philosophy.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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