Morality is like a religion
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18-08-2015, 08:45 PM
RE: Morality is like a religion
Also the audio sample is a bit creepy. Just sayin.'

"Let the waters settle and you will see the moon and stars mirrored in your own being." -Rumi
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18-08-2015, 08:46 PM
RE: Morality is like a religion
(18-08-2015 08:42 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  
(18-08-2015 08:32 PM)Detective L Ryuzaki Wrote:  Our pleasant feelings/emotions are the scientific version of good and our unpleasant feelings/emotions are the scientific version of bad.

This is complete nonsense. It is both equivocation and a category error, confusing the physical concept of pleasure with the moral concept of goodness and offering no actual tie between the two other than that you like them. It completely fails to address the fact that what makes one person feel good may cause another pain. By this logic, Hitler was doing the "scientifically good" thing when he orchestrated the Holocaust, because he believed he was doing the right thing.

Yes, I'm aware that I just Godwin'd the thread. No, I don't care, as it is actually an appropriate, valid objection.

There is no "scientific morality", because morality is entirely subjective. And if you're so determined to crowbar one into existence where none is required and still only get as far as Ayn Rand, you need to seriously rethink your philosophy.

Morality would no longer have the terms good and bad. It would only be our pleasant and unpleasant feelings/emotions that would give the good and bad meaning to our lives as I said before. It seems as though you have missed out on what I said in my previous post about our incentives.
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18-08-2015, 08:59 PM
RE: Morality is like a religion
(18-08-2015 08:06 PM)Detective L Ryuzaki Wrote:  Since Robert Sapolsky (a highly intelligent and famous evolutionary biologist) has said that our pleasant emotions (our reward system) is the only incentive an animal (in this case, a human being) has, then it would logically follow that our pleasant emotions are the only things that can give good meaning to our lives. So there is my piece of evidence right there.

Just so you are aware, this is clearly appealing to authority to incorrectly validate your antecedent, which doesn't help that fact that your consequent does not logically follow from your antecedent anways. You should try to avoid including blatant logical fallacies in your arguments in future posts.

Here's a start.
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18-08-2015, 09:03 PM
RE: Morality is like a religion
(18-08-2015 08:46 PM)Detective L Ryuzaki Wrote:  Morality would no longer have the terms good and bad.

In which case it ceases to be morality.

(18-08-2015 08:46 PM)Detective L Ryuzaki Wrote:  It would only be our pleasant and unpleasant feelings/emotions that would give the good and bad meaning to our lives as I said before. It seems as though you have missed out on what I said in my previous post about our incentives.

No, I understood.

I just recognize that it's utter tripe.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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18-08-2015, 09:06 PM
RE: Morality is like a religion
(18-08-2015 09:03 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  
(18-08-2015 08:46 PM)Detective L Ryuzaki Wrote:  Morality would no longer have the terms good and bad.

In which case it ceases to be morality.

(18-08-2015 08:46 PM)Detective L Ryuzaki Wrote:  It would only be our pleasant and unpleasant feelings/emotions that would give the good and bad meaning to our lives as I said before. It seems as though you have missed out on what I said in my previous post about our incentives.

No, I understood.

I just recognize that it's utter tripe.

Which would mean that morality would not exist. It would all just be a matter of how we interact and socialize as human beings and nothing more. We would not refer to that as being good or bad.

But could you please give me an example as to how something can give our lives good meaning (be of good value and worth to us) if we have no incentive for it whatsoever. Because I just don't see how it can give our lives good meaning. It would have to mean that we would not lament or become frustrated/enraged over the loss of those said things and people as I said before.
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18-08-2015, 09:12 PM
RE: Morality is like a religion
(18-08-2015 09:06 PM)Detective L Ryuzaki Wrote:  Which would mean that morality would not exist.

So we've gotten past that "scientific morality" bollocks, then? Wonderful. Moving on.

(18-08-2015 09:06 PM)Detective L Ryuzaki Wrote:  But could you please give me an example as to how something can give our lives good meaning (be of good value and worth to us) if we have no incentive for it whatsoever. Because I just don't see how it can give our lives good meaning. It would have to mean that we would not lament or become frustrated/enraged over the loss of those said things and people as I said before.

I would answer you, but I honestly haven't a damn clue as to what you are asking at this point. Your arguments are remarkably incoherent. If you actually want an answer, I advise you to slow down and study up on grammar.

Until then, I'm done.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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18-08-2015, 09:18 PM
RE: Morality is like a religion
(18-08-2015 09:12 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  
(18-08-2015 09:06 PM)Detective L Ryuzaki Wrote:  Which would mean that morality would not exist.

So we've gotten past that "scientific morality" bollocks, then? Wonderful. Moving on.

(18-08-2015 09:06 PM)Detective L Ryuzaki Wrote:  But could you please give me an example as to how something can give our lives good meaning (be of good value and worth to us) if we have no incentive for it whatsoever. Because I just don't see how it can give our lives good meaning. It would have to mean that we would not lament or become frustrated/enraged over the loss of those said things and people as I said before.

I would answer you, but I honestly haven't a damn clue as to what you are asking at this point. Your arguments are remarkably incoherent. If you actually want an answer, I advise you to slow down and study up on grammar.

Until then, I'm done.

It wouldn't be scientific morality. It would be a scientific feeling/emotional version of good and bad and not a scientific moral version of good and bad. I have studied completely on grammar and such as well. My arguments are completely coherent. It's just that you are simply dismissing me and my arguments as nonsense rather than giving more consideration to them.
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18-08-2015, 09:20 PM
RE: Morality is like a religion
(18-08-2015 09:18 PM)Detective L Ryuzaki Wrote:  I have studied completely on grammar and such as well.

I think I have found the problem.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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18-08-2015, 09:22 PM
RE: Morality is like a religion
(18-08-2015 08:32 PM)Detective L Ryuzaki Wrote:  I have come up with a theory here that explains how the moral (personal value judgment) version of good and bad is fake and does not make us and our lives good or bad. That there is a scientific version of good and bad that humanity and science is unaware of.

I have come up with a theory here that explains how the moral (personal value judgment) version of good and bad is fake and does not make us and our lives good or bad. That there is a scientific version of good and bad that humanity and science is unaware of.

It is our incentive that makes things and people of good value and worth to us in the first place. If we have no incentive to live for anyone or anything, then it would not bother us at all if those things and people were to be taken away from us. You just wouldn't care. Therefore, I just don't see how something can be of good value and worth to you without having any incentive to live for it.

Since our pleasant emotions (our reward system) is the only incentive an animal (in this case, a human being) has based upon what Robert Sapolsky has said who is a highly intelligent and famous evolutionary biologist, then it is only our pleasant emotions that can make things and people of good value and worth to us in our lives. You can search up Robert Sapolsky on http://www.youtube.com and watch his videos.

Our thoughts alone without our pleasant emotions due to depression and/or anhedonia (absence of pleasure) cannot give our lives any good meaning since they are all nothing more than the "thinking" experience of our brains. They can only experience different thoughts, send pleasure/displeasure signals, and send signals to make us move and express certain tones, acts, and expressions. But that is it. They cannot experience any incentives (urges) to live on and pursue our goals and dreams.

Just as how a blind and deaf person cannot give his/herself sight and hearing through his/her thoughts alone, we cannot give our lives any incentive either through our thoughts alone as long as we struggle with depression and/or anhedonia. Good and bad are senses like sight, hearing, and smell. They are scientific terms like sight, hearing, and smell. Our pleasant feelings/emotions are a sense of good meaning in our lives while our unpleasant feelings/emotions are a sense of bad meaning in our lives.

They can only experience the words and phrases love, joy, happiness, suffering, despair, fear, rage, incentive, etc. But they cannot actually experience those things since those are scientific terms that have been defined through science as only being our pleasant and unpleasant feelings/emotions and not our thoughts.

Our pleasant feelings/emotions are the scientific version of good and our unpleasant feelings/emotions are the scientific version of bad. To lament and become frustrated/enraged over losses in your life without your incentive would be your brain fooling itself into thinking it had the incentive to live for those said things and people when it never had it to begin with. You would be fooling your brain into thinking your life is good and worth living despite your depression and/or anhedonia when it was never true.

I myself struggle with depression and a chronic 24/7 absence of all my pleasant emotions. This personal experience is what has led me to this theory. If my theory is wrong, then please prove it wrong. Otherwise, people would just be believing in the moral version of good and bad like a religion.

In conclusion, morality and the thinking area of our brains alone would not give our lives any good or bad meaning. It would only be a matter of choices and decisions. It would only be a matter of avoiding or pursuing certain situations and nothing more. We wouldn't even refer to the acts of Hitler as being bad. We would still say that Hitler's life was good since he derived pleasant emotions from harming the Jews. Morality does not exist. It would no longer have the terms good and bad for it. It is all just a matter of how we as human beings socialize and interact and nothing more.

Do you really think that repeating a wall of text will help whatever your cause is?

See here they are the bruises some were self-inflicted and some showed up along the way. - JF
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18-08-2015, 09:43 PM
RE: Morality is like a religion
(18-08-2015 08:42 PM)Deidre32 Wrote:  Sometimes, depression can be self induced, by say bad choices one might make and now one's life is a mess. But...often times, depression is not self induced, and it has nothing at all to do with a person's choices. That's why it is a tricky thing to compare depression to religion.

Why is that tricky? You seem to be saying people choose their beliefs and therefore one can flip on and off a belief. Belief in a religion or secular humanism or whatever is not necessarily completely a choice either.
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