Morality vs. Legalism
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04-09-2015, 02:08 PM
RE: Morality vs. Legalism
(04-09-2015 01:24 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  You keep pointing out that you don't find the universe "cares". You are in total agreement with the Bible here, which states the universe is falling into corruption (or if you prefer in modern English, entropy)! Thanks for continuing to agree with the Bible and science both.

Ah, so we're playing silly games now. Wonderful. My turn.

Thank you for agreeing with Nietzsche regarding the uncaring nature of the universe.

(04-09-2015 01:26 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I'm neither saying "how can you think a bad thing is good" nor that you should accept my statements about morality at face value.

But I think it takes convoluted logic to make statements that many atheists make:

* There are no absolute morals

You have yet to produce any reason as to why this conclusion requires "convoluted" logic.

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04-09-2015, 02:38 PM
RE: Morality vs. Legalism
(04-09-2015 01:26 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I'm neither saying "how can you think a bad thing is good" nor that you should accept my statements about morality at face value.

But I think it takes convoluted logic to make statements that many atheists make:

* There are no absolute morals

* There are no absolute truths

Do you agree or disagree, because if you agree, there are absolutes, so we can move the discussion along to the next point. But if you disagree, you are proposing a negative which must stand in opposition to a given affirmative.

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09-09-2015, 12:10 PM
RE: Morality vs. Legalism
(04-09-2015 02:08 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  
(04-09-2015 01:24 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  You keep pointing out that you don't find the universe "cares". You are in total agreement with the Bible here, which states the universe is falling into corruption (or if you prefer in modern English, entropy)! Thanks for continuing to agree with the Bible and science both.

Ah, so we're playing silly games now. Wonderful. My turn.

Thank you for agreeing with Nietzsche regarding the uncaring nature of the universe.

(04-09-2015 01:26 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I'm neither saying "how can you think a bad thing is good" nor that you should accept my statements about morality at face value.

But I think it takes convoluted logic to make statements that many atheists make:

* There are no absolute morals

You have yet to produce any reason as to why this conclusion requires "convoluted" logic.

Because normal people (not diehard secularists) instantly, willingly make statements regarding absolutes such as "rape is always wrong". Figure out whether rape is always or sometimes wrong--something I've asked you many times now without any response, really.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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09-09-2015, 12:11 PM
RE: Morality vs. Legalism
(04-09-2015 02:38 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  
(04-09-2015 01:26 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I'm neither saying "how can you think a bad thing is good" nor that you should accept my statements about morality at face value.

But I think it takes convoluted logic to make statements that many atheists make:

* There are no absolute morals

* There are no absolute truths

Do you agree or disagree, because if you agree, there are absolutes, so we can move the discussion along to the next point. But if you disagree, you are proposing a negative which must stand in opposition to a given affirmative.

[Image: th?id=JN.f8G%2bPWJlAC8d0nJP8kftYw&am...;amp;h=300]

Repeating, do you agree absolutes exist? If not, do you understand that in order to disagree, you must first assume the following absolute:

Things may be either absolutely right or wrong and The Q is wrong...

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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09-09-2015, 12:15 PM
RE: Morality vs. Legalism
(09-09-2015 12:10 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Because normal people (not diehard secularists) instantly, willingly make statements regarding absolutes such as "rape is always wrong". Figure out whether rape is always or sometimes wrong--something I've asked you many times now without any response, really.

I already gave you my response.

I am of the subjective opinion that rape is wrong. This is not objective fact. "Objectively wrong" is a nonsense phrase.

And no, "I think that rape is always wrong" is not equivalent to "rape is objectively wrong", no matter how much you wish it was.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
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09-09-2015, 01:10 PM
RE: Morality vs. Legalism
(09-09-2015 12:10 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Because normal people (not diehard secularists) instantly, willingly make statements regarding absolutes such as "rape is always wrong".
"normal" people speak colloquially. They aren't necessarily interested in the philosophy of words.

When "normal" people say "rape is wrong" they don't mean that there is an objective universal meaning to the term.
They just mean that they think people ought not to commit rape.

Why do they think that? Is it because some god creature has imprinted this "knowledge" into their "image" or their "heart"?

Nah, nothing mystical, people say this because they seriously don't want to be raped and don't want their loved ones being raped and they even feel empathy for strangers (people) that are victims of rape.

If you don't know why a person can feel empathy for a rape victim then you must take a long look at yourself in the mirror.
It's much the same as a person having empathy for a woman having a miscarriage. Except of course, the miscarriage is not intentionally caused by an aggressor(person) so they can't say that people shouldn't go around causing miscarriages.

Abortion on the other hand is fine. "normal" secular people don't feel that abortion is wrong, they don't blame the doctor for causing the abortion. Even though they might have sympathy for the woman.

Blasphemy is fine. "normal" secular people don't feel sympathy for an imaginary "all powerful" god when it get blasphemed.

God damn it, to say "Jesus was a raving homo and sucked Mohamed's balls right before corn dogging his arsehole" would be funny given the Christian and Muslim's fear of homosexuality. Nothing wrong there.
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09-09-2015, 01:10 PM
RE: Morality vs. Legalism
(09-09-2015 12:15 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  And no, "I think that rape is always wrong" is not equivalent to "rape is objectively wrong", no matter how much you wish it was.

No, it's equivalent to saying handle bar mustaches are always wrong. You're just stating a preference, like your musical taste, or fashion preferences.

When you say rape is always wrong, all you're really saying is that you don't like it.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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09-09-2015, 01:14 PM
RE: Morality vs. Legalism
(09-09-2015 01:10 PM)Stevil Wrote:  "normal" people speak colloquially. They aren't necessarily interested in the philosophy of words.

When "normal" people say "rape is wrong" they don't mean that there is an objective universal meaning to the term.
They just mean that they think people ought not to commit rape.

No, normal people mean it's objectively wrong. Normal people don't believe in subjective morality, or believe moral statements are statements of preference. Normal people don't think that torturing babies just for fun, is a matter of opinion, the the wrong they ascribe to it, is seen as objective, factual claim.

You might think otherwise in regards to yourself, but you're not representative of the everyday joe.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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09-09-2015, 01:34 PM (This post was last modified: 09-09-2015 01:37 PM by ClydeLee.)
RE: Morality vs. Legalism
(09-09-2015 01:14 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(09-09-2015 01:10 PM)Stevil Wrote:  "normal" people speak colloquially. They aren't necessarily interested in the philosophy of words.

When "normal" people say "rape is wrong" they don't mean that there is an objective universal meaning to the term.
They just mean that they think people ought not to commit rape.

No, normal people mean it's objectively wrong. Normal people don't believe in subjective morality, or believe moral statements are statements of preference. Normal people don't think that torturing babies just for fun, is a matter of opinion, the the wrong they ascribe to it, is seen as objective, factual claim.

You might think otherwise in regards to yourself, but you're not representative of the everyday joe.

What is it that makes you define what "normal" is and what "everyday joe" is supposed to be?

https://www.barna.org/barna-update/5-bar...n-feelings

Here is some limited data from a decade ago upon some people but it's not some certain formation of data that most "everyday joe" thinks things are objectively wrong or not. What defines what is a "normal" person anyway?

I have been on key saying that piece Stevil has stated and it's reflected a lot when you directly talk to people and ask them what they actually belief opposed to taking their word choice for what it is. People speak in generalizations and in absolutes because it's simpler and quicker to achieve a shared thought or expression of a feeling before you mull over the actual idea in your head. I brought it up in many of those other moral threads because a couple of them were specifically about how people say things, well initially they were.

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09-09-2015, 01:51 PM (This post was last modified: 09-09-2015 01:57 PM by Tomasia.)
RE: Morality vs. Legalism
(09-09-2015 01:34 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  What is it that makes you define what "normal" is and what "everyday joe" is supposed to be?

https://www.barna.org/barna-update/5-bar...n-feelings

Here is some limited data from a decade ago upon some people but it's not some certain formation of data that most "everyday joe" thinks things are objectively wrong or not. What defines what is a "normal" person anyway?

I have been on key saying that piece Stevil has stated and it's reflected a lot when you directly talk to people and ask them what they actually belief opposed to taking their word choice for what it is. People speak in generalizations and in absolutes because it's simpler and quicker to achieve a shared thought or expression of a feeling before you mull over the actual idea in your head. I brought it up in many of those other moral threads because a couple of them were specifically about how people say things, well initially they were.

What normal means, is the average. The average person is not an atheists, the average person tends to be religious. Over half of whom are christians and muslims.

Secondly objective morality is not the same as absolute morality. Nor is believing certain actions can be right in certain circumstances, and wrong in other circumstances, a belief that morality is subjective, such as it might be right to kill a man in self-defense, but not right to do so just for shits and giggles.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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