Morality vs. Legalism
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12-09-2015, 05:28 AM (This post was last modified: 12-09-2015 05:33 AM by ClydeLee.)
RE: Morality vs. Legalism
(11-09-2015 06:54 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(11-09-2015 09:54 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  When they say it..."X is wrong" yes they say it like you, but as I keep repeating because you don't contrast it with anything other than what they say, when you question them deeply and ask them ethical problem scenarios or judge their motives/actions you get a response that isn't reflective of that spoken it's wrong/right answer.

So you acknowledge that when the say x is morally wrong, that they mean it like I do above, in an objective way, like if they were say 2+2=5, is wrong. If you're conceding this point, then I don't know what is we're suppose to be arguing about. Are you claiming than when you dig deeper it shows there's a conflict between this objective perception and those deeper beliefs?

What you going and and on about? I would respond in similar way as them in regards to those scenarios. So what does that suggest? That I don't really believe morality is objective?

You're not being very clear at this point, and I'm not even sure what your objections are anymore.

They may THINK they mean it in an objective way. When you ask them to clarify and define it, and question them in that manner. It comes out that not as many people to a high degree continue to actually believe in morality that way.

It's just peoples very base easy to say statement. Those don't reflect actual feeling and thoughts. Like I brought up before, like someone saying I love you. That's something you should know is far from any guarantee about what the person actually feels & believes. A person may even say I love you to a person thinking they mean it in that moment, then a few seconds later really question themselves and think it out that they know honestly that they don't love the person.

The problem is people often will initially choose ideas like yes, Objectively saving more lives is right... except you add a variable and their stances isn't any longer that saying more lives is objectively right. Some indicate that they don't believe there is a right answer out there when it comes to testing moral action.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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13-09-2015, 01:58 PM
Morality vs. Legalism
(12-09-2015 05:28 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  
(11-09-2015 06:54 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  So you acknowledge that when the say x is morally wrong, that they mean it like I do above, in an objective way, like if they were say 2+2=5, is wrong. If you're conceding this point, then I don't know what is we're suppose to be arguing about. Are you claiming than when you dig deeper it shows there's a conflict between this objective perception and those deeper beliefs?

What you going and and on about? I would respond in similar way as them in regards to those scenarios. So what does that suggest? That I don't really believe morality is objective?

You're not being very clear at this point, and I'm not even sure what your objections are anymore.

They may THINK they mean it in an objective way. When you ask them to clarify and define it, and question them in that manner. It comes out that not as many people to a high degree continue to actually believe in morality that way.

You might have to expand on this a bit, because it's not very clear to me at one point it begins to not be that way. I think my responses to similar questions would mirror their own, particularly if their of somewhat of a religious persuasion.

Which example exhibits that the don't mean it that way? That reveals a sort of inconsistency, a contradiction in their belief in objective morality?

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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13-09-2015, 02:07 PM
RE: Morality vs. Legalism
(13-09-2015 01:58 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Which example exhibits that the don't mean it that way? That reveals a sort of inconsistency, a contradiction in their belief in objective morality?

Have we gone through all of the counterexamples yet, Tomnesia? How about cannibalism? Objectively moral or not? It certainly is moral for a number of different cultures.

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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14-09-2015, 08:24 AM
RE: Morality vs. Legalism
(13-09-2015 02:07 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Have we gone through all of the counterexamples yet, Tomnesia? How about cannibalism? Objectively moral or not? It certainly is moral for a number of different cultures.

Yes, I believe it to be immoral, even if their are tribes which do so. An encounter with a such tribe, wouldn't lead me to the conclusions that we just have a difference of opinion, or palate, where as I eat beef they eat humans, and my aversion amounts to nothing more than disgust, like my parents disgust at eating raw fish.

In fact the rituals, and practices surrounding the act of cannibalism, suggest that if those who engage in the practice are not entirely absent of the moral transgression in which they are violating, that have to engage in these grand rituals to do so.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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14-09-2015, 01:32 PM
RE: Morality vs. Legalism
(14-09-2015 08:24 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  In fact the rituals, and practices surrounding the act of cannibalism, suggest that if those who engage in the practice are not entirely absent of the moral transgression in which they are violating, that have to engage in these grand rituals to do so.
What about people who blaspheme god or who disbelieve god or who work on Sunday or who have lustful thoughts or who have recreational sex or have gay sex.

Do all these people need to perform a grand ritual in order to overcome the "fact" that they are doing immoral things.
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14-09-2015, 02:04 PM
RE: Morality vs. Legalism
(14-09-2015 01:32 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(14-09-2015 08:24 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  In fact the rituals, and practices surrounding the act of cannibalism, suggest that if those who engage in the practice are not entirely absent of the moral transgression in which they are violating, that have to engage in these grand rituals to do so.
What about people who blaspheme god or who disbelieve god or who work on Sunday or who have lustful thoughts or who have recreational sex or have gay sex.

Do all these people need to perform a grand ritual in order to overcome the "fact" that they are doing immoral things.

Probably not.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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14-09-2015, 02:08 PM
RE: Morality vs. Legalism
(14-09-2015 02:04 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(14-09-2015 01:32 PM)Stevil Wrote:  What about people who blaspheme god or who disbelieve god or who work on Sunday or who have lustful thoughts or who have recreational sex or have gay sex.

Do all these people need to perform a grand ritual in order to overcome the "fact" that they are doing immoral things.

Probably not.
So, these things aren't immoral then?
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14-09-2015, 02:18 PM (This post was last modified: 14-09-2015 02:23 PM by Tomasia.)
RE: Morality vs. Legalism
(14-09-2015 02:08 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(14-09-2015 02:04 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Probably not.
So, these things aren't immoral then?

Who said everything immoral requires a grand ritual?

But regardless, in regards to any of these topics, folks who believe in morality, are able to argue and talk about it, sometimes presenting facts, etc... to sways one's moral perceptions. They argue about morality, the way they argue any other question of truth, like whether a historical jesus existed or not, unlike folks arguing as to who the most attractive actress is. No argument will sway my brother in law to prefer sushi over spaghetti.

Those who consider homosexuality as not immoral, will typically argue along the lines that one is born that way, that's it not a choice, that two consenting adults should be able to love each other the way they see fit, while the other side will argue that it's a choice, spread disease, and unhealthy view of human sexuality, etc.., or whatever right-wing talking point is of the moment. Some of the reasons, and arguments are true, and some are false.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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14-09-2015, 02:28 PM
RE: Morality vs. Legalism
(14-09-2015 02:18 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Those who consider homosexuality as not immoral, will typically argue along the lines that one is born that way, that's it not a choice,
Do you think it would make a difference to them if it were accepted as "a choice"
Do you think they would then be compelled to interfere and stop other people making this choice?
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14-09-2015, 02:30 PM
RE: Morality vs. Legalism
(14-09-2015 02:18 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Who said everything immoral requires a grand ritual?
This is often what you have been painting.

A picture that people need some sort of justification for doing "immoral" things.
Where-as for morally neutral things people don't need to justify their actions.
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